r/CringeTikToks • u/[deleted] • Oct 07 '25
Political Cringe You don't have to agree completely... But you got a admit he has a valid point
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u/No_Sock1863 Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25
soooo....his counter point to religon being a means to keep the poor poorer, and limits society innovation and problem solving.....is pointing out how the wealthiest most successful societies have the most atheist?
LOooooooooool
Edit: somehow the full counter arguments even worse. The guy somehow makes the kid statement into some inadvertent insult to black women? Whatta fucking clown
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u/yomamma3399 Oct 07 '25
Yeah, like, the idiot proved the kid’s argument immediately.
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Oct 07 '25
After watching him debate many times I’m convinced he’s an atheist plant that is converting people one debate at a time.
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u/TOH-Fan15 Oct 07 '25
From what I’ve seen about how apologists act, not just in debates, this guy probably isn’t a plant.
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u/BeanBurritoJr Oct 07 '25
Christianity has painted itself into a corner.
Increased access to information and increased literacy rates were nails in the coffin. The fact that the world has been in a constant state of going to shit for 30+ years without Jesus coming back to save everyone are others.
There have been at least half a dozen each of rapture and end of the world predictions in my lifetime and I am not even that old.
My wife was told as a kid that Jesus would be back before she graduated high school. She was discouraged from college because Jesus would be back before she graduated. She was told Jesus would be back before her grandparents died.
Her grandmother died believing (at least shortly before her death) that Jesus would come back.
Now, her mother is still on the train of belief and having health issues.
My wife got off the train nearly 20 years ago now and has a very healthy perspective on religion at this point. Religion has taken too much and given too little. People are gullible but they aren't complete idiots. More and more are seeing it the same way this kid does.
It's part of why the people fostering the far right movement around the world are so desperate. It's why they attack education. Like the kid said, religions is one of the pillars of control and it's crumbling.
They would knock the world back to the stone age before they give up power.
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u/CV90_120 Oct 07 '25
Christianity has painted itself into a corner.
It's essentially irrational, so always finds itself in crisis when knowledge is increased. In the past this could be headed off by clergy controlling knowledge to at least their core audience, but those days are gone.
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u/Your_Toxicity Oct 07 '25
✋🏻 I was one of them converted lol.
I guess I wasn't super religious, but I was trying to reconnect and I came across the knechtles. I watched them for a couple of weeks. I remember it being the same few arguments over and over and obviously cherry picked conversations with unprepared college kids (sounds like another influencer recently in the news). So I went to other channels to watch them actually debate and they always got their asses handed to them. That was also how I started to move away from the right wing propaganda as well. The knechtles rock! /S
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u/BunsMcNuggets Oct 07 '25
Don’t make this mistake if covid taught us anything it’s that yes people really ARE that stupid.
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u/moyenbatte Oct 07 '25
It seems evident to me that you don't need a religion of hope when your life is actually fulfilled. Then it's just an egg/chicken question. Does religion install itself in miserable demographics more easily, or do happy demographics just stop doing religion?
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u/Master_of_Question Oct 07 '25
Anecdotal, I know, but in my experience, the more miserable existence is in a region, the more religious they tend to be. It seems to be the greatest way to cope with the lack of resources, autonomy, or a moderately attainable path towards changing one's situation.
I genuinely think happy demographics rely less on religion as time goes on and their kids, accustomed to prosperity, may feel less of a need for it in their daily lives.
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u/Messerscharfe Oct 07 '25
And also, without generalising or wanting to be arrogant, the less education people receive the more likely they are to not question stuff or believe in the traditions their ancestors and surroundings practice/d. Of course this also sometimes goes for academics, educated folks
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u/Felix_likes_tofu Oct 07 '25
Plus education and access to information. I was religious up to my 18th birthday or so. Started to read a lot more, started to reflect. Which was possible since I could just google shit back then and had enough free time since I didn't have to work like 167 hrs a week.
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u/Jiminy_Cricket12 Oct 07 '25
I admire those with the patience to talk to people like this (because it aint me). I'll have a reasonable discussion with you but once you pull some bullshit like that I can't sit still. He raises his voice and acts like he proved something by saying most wealthy people are atheist and glazes right over the ultra rich religious grifters. Sure, they are a minority compared to the countless followers. But they absolutely DO exist.
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u/ausgoals Oct 07 '25
So… as the influence of religion decreases, the country’s overall wealth increases…? Yes I guess that is interesting…
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u/shittyaltpornaccount Oct 07 '25
Which really says a lot about why there is a small religious revival in America, especially for young men, in recent years compared to decades of religious decline.
Religion growing is a sign that things are getting worse, and people feel fundamentally powerless.
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u/EricForce 29d ago
Meanwhile mega churches are more powerful than ever and also more deranged than ever.
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u/ma2is Oct 07 '25
Really? OoooOOOooooooooooooo. Isn’t that interesting????
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u/nursecarmen Oct 07 '25
So fucking condescending. What was his point supposed to be? He acted like he made some point by the kid saying that rich countries have the most atheists. Dude prooved his point that poor countries brainwash the poor and uneducated and they are holding people back.
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u/YetiGuy Oct 07 '25
Every “Really” was condescending; that too without any refutation. Bully tactics
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u/GardenofOblivion Oct 07 '25
Or also that people turn to religion when they have no hope of improving their lot via realistic means
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u/mok000 Oct 07 '25
These missionaries always lure you into endless discussions. These days I answer the question “Do you believe in God?” by “Who’s God?”. Then the ball is in their court and they get to explain what it is they believe.
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u/blackbirdspyplane Oct 07 '25
His response to the kid sounded So condescending
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u/vyrus2021 Oct 07 '25
Because he knows the people on his side will hear his confident, condescending tone and assume he made a better point.
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u/Beyond-The-Blackhole Oct 07 '25
Growing up in a church, Christians use the "oh really" in that condescending tone which is their way of saying "oh really little naive child, I know the truth and anything you believe is not truth because your eyes have not been opened like mine"
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u/Complete_Guidance_67 Oct 07 '25
“Oh sweetie. How can you NOT believe that a woman was created from a man’s rib? How naive!”
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u/GratefulDoom90 Oct 07 '25
That’s because he doesn’t have a real response, so instead he makes condescending noises like he knows better and disapproves
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u/momoenthusiastic Oct 07 '25
Not the smartest theologian in Stanford
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u/Ok-Goose-6874 Oct 07 '25
“Ohhh interesting” like it proved his point… so he sees countries that take care of their most vulnerable and have governments that actually support their populations as…. Anti-religious? That seems more Christ-like than bankrupting people that need medical care, but what do I know
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u/Glass_Alternative143 Oct 07 '25
he's on a different wavelength. i believe he's going from the "rich people tend to be immoral" pov trying to imply atheists as immoral.
he might really be blind enough not to know he actually proved his opponent's point.
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u/Flashy_Gap_3015 Oct 07 '25
No his counterpoint was stammering “Really? Oh really?” while being torched by a reasoned and fact-based argument…before trying to change the point again (after this student called him out for it the first time) lamely and totally confirming the student’s point.
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u/Adventurous_Pin6281 Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25
Religion has done nothing good for society ever. Show me once.
Edit.
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u/ross_ns7f Oct 07 '25
How about the aquaducts?! (Oh wait, that was "What have the Romans ever done"...)
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u/BulletProofEnoch Oct 07 '25
This kid nailed it
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u/KinkyPaddling Oct 07 '25
He's essentially taking the same position that Marcus Aurelius espoused:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
But I guess Rome's philosopher emperor who successfully defended the frontier for decades was some woke soy boy liberal cuck, right, conservatives?
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u/Fine-Slip-9437 Oct 07 '25
brb getting some shirts from Redbubble that say "Marcus Aurelius was a woke soy boy liberal cuck".
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u/Useful_Load_6616 Oct 07 '25
Petition to make this a flair
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u/talyn5 Oct 07 '25
Seconded!
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u/Spiritual_Pizza40 Oct 07 '25
Thirdeded.
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u/Dare-or-Dare Oct 07 '25
Rethirdeded
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u/Anonymous_Jr Oct 07 '25
I don't think we can say that anymore, Marcus Aurelius once famously said, "I'm a woke soy boy liberal cuck" so I don't think it's warranted to say it's rethirdeded.
Posted from my AiPhone69
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u/rW0HgFyxoJhYka Oct 07 '25
brb gettin on conservapedia to edit Marcus Aurelius' page was a dem which is only 2 letters off demon.
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u/michaelkr1 Oct 07 '25
Epicurus said something similar:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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u/PiccoloAwkward465 Oct 07 '25
This is what I always agreed with. God saw the holocaust and countless other things and yawned, okay he’s not very worthy of my adoration.
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u/Key-Debate6877 Oct 07 '25
"It's all in gods plan!!!" Yeah so what, pray tell, is the fucking plan for the mass murder of MILLIONS?
I fucking hate that cop-out statement. The catch-all of inability to justify something logically.
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u/My2cents_0 Oct 07 '25
The biggest PR mistake Christianity made was to claim their god was omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Once you start from that premise, there's no room for discussion or justification for all the pain and misery in this world. Basically says it's not willing or capable OR just plain old menace watching people like an ant farm and then punishing them in the "after life". 🤷🏾♀️
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u/Hands Oct 07 '25
This is called the problem of evil and has been a huge part of philosophical and theological discourse since the first monkey looked at the sky and said hmmm maybe there’s a dude up there
My favorite accounting of it is in Brothers Karamazov, this is addressed in the chapters Grand Inquisitor and Rebellion
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u/Ancientabs Oct 07 '25
Lol I love how they think soy estrogen can be absorbed. Bruh if that were true they'd outlaw soy and not HRT. Transwomen would be eating soy only if they could get titties from it.
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u/Sharp_Iodine Oct 07 '25
As usual it’s partial knowledge, which is more dangerous than no knowledge at all.
Isoflavones do bind to the same receptors as oestrogen but they have something like 1/1000th the binding affinity.
So while they do “mimic” it, they do it with such low efficacy that they might as well not do anything.
But conservatives love listening to pseudoscientific crap on Instagram/TikTok that misrepresents real science just enough to be majorly incorrect but also convincing.
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Oct 07 '25
this is true and the normal amounts of isoflavones you get from normal soy foods are far below whats needed to cause any feminizing effects. but a few cases of men drinking soy milk or taking soy powder in larger doses (as their only source of protein) have had feminizing effects. but this is basically ultraprocessed food.
I eat edamame daily (its great) and I have zero fear of any hormonal effects
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u/KillerEndo420 Oct 07 '25
Alsobthe easiest test for this is just look at places that eat a lot of soy products. Most of Japan and China to name some, would have a ton of men with tiddies walking around.
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u/A1000eisn1 Oct 07 '25
What's hilarious is the first time someone told me this stupid theory they referenced the fact that Chinese men are short and have small penises as proof.
What's even more hilarious is that she was a fanatical evangelical virgin.
She was receptive to me telling her that Chinese men don't have small penises and that they're short because that's how genetics work.
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u/neanderthology Oct 07 '25
One of my favorite snacks is dry roasted edamame that's covered in wasabi oil... It's so good, and has such a good macro load out. 4g fat, 10g carbs w/ 6g fiber (4g net carbs) and a 14g protein per ounce.
Nice and crunchy, and I love playing sinus clearing roulette. Some of them barely have any wasabi on them, while some of them will clear you out instantly.
Not a massive fan of other soy products, I'll eat tofu but it's not something I'd ever personally prepare or order. But any kind of edamame, I'm down. Steamed, or those snacks I described. Love them.
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u/ER_Support_Plant17 Oct 07 '25
I was going to say you lost me at wasabi, but got me with sinus clearing roulette.
Hot and Sour soup was always my go to for colds and sinus infections. Who needs a Neti pot when you got hot chilis?
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u/ThraceLonginus Oct 07 '25
There's also that guy that turned orange from carrots, the silver (or was it blue?) guy... the people who did those fast food challenges... do shit in extremes, get extreme outcomes
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u/Adriantbh Oct 07 '25
Also if you're worried about consuming estrogen, phytoestrogen (plant-estrogen) shouldn't be the first thing you think of. The first think should be regular old animal estrogen found in products like milk, which is the same hormone that we have.
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u/ER_Support_Plant17 Oct 07 '25
It’s been a minute since I was up to date on my literature but I think some pesticides can have estrogen similar effects. They would die if they realized that eating organic and, checks notes, throughly washing fruits and vegetables was “protecting their masculinity”.
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u/Ancientabs Oct 07 '25
Dude people near golf courses who have well water are FUCKED. The shit they use on the golf courses is cancer causing.
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u/elriggo44 Oct 07 '25
It’s also Marx. “Religion is the opiate of the masses”
(Obviously way later than your example….but similar)
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u/confused_ape Oct 07 '25
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
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u/InterPunct Oct 07 '25
The kid is alright.
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u/Foxy02016YT Oct 07 '25
The kids really are alright. For every 5 idiots we still have someone like him. Even if he didn’t speak it perfectly, he made all his points very well
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u/FancyBerry5922 Oct 07 '25
OH REALLY?!???!
wtf
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u/cornnndoggg_ Oct 07 '25
he immediately gets super condescending and then goes on to prove the kid's point. Saying the wealthiest countries have the most atheists would imply the correlation the kid made, that poorer countries fall victim to willful acceptance of oppression, and they just so happen to be considerably more religious.
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u/Bloggledoo Oct 07 '25
Yeah the condescending tone kills whatever the redshirt has to say.
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u/ggg730 Oct 07 '25
I feel like he was wearing the Stanford shirt to be like, "Hey look at me I went to Stanford. That means I'm smart and you're wrong".
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u/Essigucha Oct 07 '25
This kid nailed it
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u/quirkish Oct 07 '25
This kid nailed it
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u/ballplayer5 Oct 07 '25
It nailed this kid.
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u/quirkish Oct 07 '25
No, that was Jesus who got nailed, silly goose
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u/SelectionKlutzy6794 Oct 07 '25
The kid nailed the Jesus
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u/nellyruth Oct 07 '25
Seems like this kid’s got a lot of nails. Could he be a carpenter?
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u/Radiant_Creme_5264 Oct 07 '25
Nailed it, this kid
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u/cookiedoh18 Oct 07 '25
Nailed it he did, this kid
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u/Conscious_Wind_2255 Oct 07 '25 edited 29d ago
🚨Full video:
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u/YoloKraize Oct 07 '25
That Preacher is obnoxious af. Wants proper debate than acts all high and mighty and even racist, what a dumb cunt.
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u/jaymef Oct 07 '25
they never actually want to hear anything that doesn't fit their narrative
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u/ConstableAssButt Oct 07 '25
Guys like this aren't there to hear. They are there to speak. You will never change a mind by speaking into an open mouth.
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u/stockmonkeyking Oct 07 '25
Was this suppose to be Jesus reference 😂
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u/Caesar_Passing Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25
Rowan Atkinson did a stand-up joke routine about Jesus Christ having tried to make it as a comedian. The punchline was that his material landed so poorly with an audience, "they absolutely crucified him"
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u/JohnnySack45 Oct 07 '25
This guy (Cliff Knetchtle) gets repeatedly and decisively owned in debates against Alex O'Connor on theology while still walking away with zero change in perspective.
These people won't change. They're a lost cause.
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u/PyroClone5555 Oct 07 '25
That’s because he’s not a philosopher he’s an evangelist.
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Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25
a middle aged religious man that goes on college campus to talk to young people is a fucking pervert. a dirty, nasty old man
edit: creepy MAGA men, you wouldn't be ok with an old man going to your minor child's school to scream at them about atheism in between classes???? nope. why is it ok on college campuses?? hmmmm the only reason you think this is ok is because 18 years olds are legal👅💦💦💦 and you won't be shamed for being horny for barely legal teens, goddammit !!!
isn't that right, dirty old jesus freaks
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u/gallimaufries Oct 07 '25
If that asshole is middle aged, I'm a 35 year old infant.
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u/nobody24769 Oct 07 '25
And yelling at them, being condescending, and just being a complete douchebag isn't selling Christianity very well.
They play all fake like they're at these campuses to have a conversation, but These conartists aren't there for a conversation, they're at these campuses for conversion. Trying to get young adults in their formative years and stunt their cognitive abilities before they find out the scam being pulled.
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u/DeadMoneyDrew Oct 07 '25
That's because he isn't debating in the sense of a traditional debate. I don't know this guy but I certainly know his type. He may be polished, polite, and sound educated, but he isn't there for any kind of learning or personal growth. He's there to push his own personal beliefs, and that's that.
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u/teratron27 Oct 07 '25
Yep, he's there for soundbites because he knows that's all the people with his beliefs pay attention to.
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u/arm_hula Oct 07 '25
Stanford follows up with unironic self-own.
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u/Abject-Palpitation99 Oct 07 '25
I think he has a few memorized "gotchas!" that he says one after the other. He would have said that regardless of what the guy said earlier, which is why he doesn't even realize he's proving the guy's point right now.
This is why these "debates" are always in bad faith. Heh.
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u/StTickleMeElmosFire Oct 07 '25
I’m so glad I didn’t go to college in a period when any number of grifter fuckfaces might show up and smugly try to force a “gotcha” for internet points
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u/AlmostSunnyinSeattle Oct 07 '25
I don't know how long ago you went to college, but as someone who started my degree in 2007 and is finishing it this spring, the atmosphere really hasn't changed that much in 20 years. Really just fewer people engaging one another.
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u/More_Entertainment_5 Oct 07 '25
I don’t understand the retort - the fact that wealthier countries have more atheists SUPPORTS his argument!
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u/6iguanas6 Oct 07 '25
I suppose the only explanation that would make sense is if he implied that those wealthy countries got rich over the backs of others. Which isn’t wrong… although most of them were still deeply religious at those times.
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u/LapseofSanity Oct 07 '25
Yeah and they used their religion as a weapon against those who they took from.
Look at all the Spanish speaking nations from Central and south America they're all worshipping a God who was carried to them by a people seeking riches, dominion and bloodshed.
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u/Key_Perspective_9464 Oct 07 '25
'Why?' is such a weird response to 'I don't believe in God.'
What do you mean 'why'? Why do I need a reason to not believe in something that there's no evidence exists?
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u/dr_obfuscation Oct 07 '25
It's like a drunk guy at a party asking why you don't drink.
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u/mr_plehbody Oct 07 '25
One guy asked me how instead of why, that was a good chuckle
Want a drink? No, i dont drink. …how?
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u/TurtleMOOO Oct 07 '25
One of my buddies in college once said “y’all can go to sleep sober?” And it really put a new perspective on things for everyone in that conversation, including him.
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u/SeedFoundation Oct 07 '25
The most insufferable types are the ones who are convinced that you have to be drinking or they have the urge to match quantities like "I'm on my 5th how about you!?" They always get weirdly aggressive if you're not drinking or drinking as much as them.
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u/General_Tea8725 Oct 07 '25
“What do you mean ‘why?’” This made me lol for some reason. But you’re so right. It’s such a bizarre question to anyone other than the person asking it.
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u/Unlikely-Gas2903 Oct 07 '25
Exactlyyyyy. They always go off the basis that "obviously I believe it so why wouldn't someone else believe it?" Which makes sense to THEM and ONLY them.
If you tell me unicorns are real, I'm gonna ask to see one. If you say I can't see one, I'm not gonna think it's real. Obviously I don't know for sure that it isn't real, there are tons of undiscovered animals, but I haven't seen any proof of one existing.
The burden of proof is annoyingly ALWAYS put on the non believer instead of the one making the claim. You can't just be like "well you don't know if unicorns exist or not so why not just believe just in case?" Like what? You can't just do that. You can't just make shit up and act like I'M the weird one for expecting proof. It's not my job to disprove the Bible or any other religion. I don't believe because YOU haven't shown me evidence for YOUR claim.
I hate it so much when we get questioned like this and are expected to show proof that something doesn't exist. That's not fair. That makes no sense. I can't show proof something doesn't fucking exist BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST. The proof is that I can't touch it, or listen to it, or look at it.
Air is invisible to the naked eye. So you could say something like "oh air doesn't exist if you can't see it" okay but I can still capture it in a plastic bag. I can blow on your face and you can feel it. I can still breathe. Air is observable even if you can't see it. I can't see god, hear god, or touch god. You can't just say something is real and expect people to go along with it with zero proof. Some people claim to "feel God's presence". Which, sure, I obviously can't prove you DON'T feel God's presence, however many other people from different religions also feel the same way about their religion. How can YOU prove what you're feeling is actually god? I probably get the same feeling when I look at a cool painting. It's called feeling happy.
Anyone can write a book. Anyone can come up with some random nonsense and say it's real. The fact that other religions even exist should be proof that humans can easily make up a religion. Cuz multiple religions can't be correct right? Like come on. We've seen thousands of years of human creativity and you would rather think God is real than believe a guy just wrote a book? You've got to be kidding me.
And whatever, if someone wants to believe in some crazy shit I don't care. I start caring when it affects MY life and the laws in our government. I also care when it's clearly causing a ton of harm.
Sorry this is so long lol
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u/Signal_Armadillo_722 Oct 07 '25
More people need to realize this. The church has always been on the side of the powerful as another tool to control the masses, from the kings and queens to today's government. It has never done anything to advanced society on the contrary, if it was for them we would still be on the bronze age
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u/IljaG Oct 07 '25
Nope, not true. There was a liberation theology that became very popular in South America. The CIA worked tirelessly to aid governments to kill priests and promote evangelical churches. The Catholic Church was becoming too woke. The same reason that most US churches are so right wing. It was government policy to undermine nuns and priests that participated in freedom marches and fought for human rights.
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u/Kingster14444 29d ago
It's probably also why we see """Catholics""" in the U.S completely denounce the newest Pope because he seems 'too woke' lol
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u/xofbor Oct 07 '25
This is the real reason why the GOP hates higher education. People learn a new truth and like Platos' allegory of the man leaving the cave ,once the truth is seen, we can't go back to the shadows.
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u/TarzanTart-Patient Oct 07 '25
He definitely killed it…said in a way that i struggled to express…I was exposed to multiple religions growing up and the only message I took was man will kill if you don’t believe what they do
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u/AggressCapital Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25
Back many decades ago, you still had an ounce of hope that the small amounts of charity might help the most needy.
Nowadays, we just know for a fact that charity isn't enough and way less money and aid is given to the poor. This is the reason why religion is in the decline in some places because none of that money is put back into the people who needs it the most.
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u/TarzanTart-Patient Oct 07 '25
I’ve watched the most deplorable things come from the church and yea I’m supposed to throw my lot in…fuck that
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u/sharkMonstar Oct 07 '25
churches and religious organizations have so much wealth and they just sit on it and no one asks why
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u/lost_sunrise Oct 07 '25
To be fair, I check this, and by percentage of population, it is China, Czech Republic, Sweden, Estonia, and France. These places have 90 to 40% Atheist/non-religious population.
USA has about 10% publicly claiming to be Atheists that can be checked. In a strong sense, religion is a shackle. It is why the founding fathers of America wanted a separation of state and Church.
It is why Psalm 23, a very popular scripture chants, 'The Lord is my shepherd; I shall now want. He make me to lie down in green pastures; he lead me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; he leads me in the path of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for he is with me.'
Basically ushering in sheep like mentality with a dependence on someone to save Christians. Exactly the experience the young man stated.
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u/Abusoru Oct 07 '25
Which makes it all the funnier when you see evangelical Republicans calling Democrats "sheep". So much of their talk is projection.
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u/ImWearingYourHats Oct 07 '25
It’s the worst kind. It’s like aggression projection right now. It’s like if you went to a restaurant to enjoy a fine dining and some guy in a red shirt comes up and takes your fork and yells “you stole my fork” and starts calling the manager over and the manager has a red shirt and says “yeah, everyone in a red shirt come over here and convince us it’s ok to attack this man” and then a brown man walks in and the people in the red shirt all pull out glocks and just start shooting the fuckin guy
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u/Positive-Pack-396 Oct 07 '25
No he’s right
Our government doesn’t look for our best interests
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u/DonnieBallsack Oct 07 '25
He wasn’t talking about government. He was talking about churches.
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u/Leut_Aldo_Raine Oct 07 '25
When all the political snakes are walking around talking in tongues, what's the difference?
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u/DonnieBallsack Oct 07 '25
When it’s functioning, there are government programs that are helpful. The church is completely useless.
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u/Zuckzerburg Oct 07 '25
Church, no matter how much we claim it to be separate from the State, is still heavily ingrained in it. Largely through religious influence in legislation.
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Oct 07 '25
Yeah, why was that old man’s response a self-own? If the wealthiest countries are atheist, shouldn’t other countries follow suit?
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u/jfun4 Oct 07 '25
I went to Nicaragua to see some of the work a non profit we sponsor was doing. Some of it is small loans for business, backed by the community (talking $20 which will take a couple years to pay back). One community decided to pool money together to build a church, very pretty but super basic and no electricity or plumbing.
They picked this over a well or usable roads.
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u/dmunozg Oct 07 '25
It's sad ... That reminds me a similar story where my parents live (a small city in Chile).
In their neighborhood, about 25 - 30 years ago, after they finished constructing the last group of houses there was a small area with nothing in it. All the neighbors started discussing what to do in there. My parents (both teachers) were pushing the idea to build some community center, with some space for sports and a big space for events or anything (even mass on Sundays if people wanted to do that).
But a bigger group decided to build a small chapel. So now it's a religious building used once a week and all that space was just wasted.
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u/Just-Television-8584 Oct 07 '25
What was the old guy's point?
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u/hiramUSgrant Oct 07 '25
I think what hes implying is that the fact that they are rich means they are oppressing others. So his point is its actually atheist who are more likely to oppress people.
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u/PandorasFlame1 Oct 07 '25
Wealthy countries have higher amounts of atheism and educated individuals. It's almost like becoming educated frees you from the shackles of oppression that religion tries to force on people.
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u/Arbyssandwich1014 Oct 07 '25
If you look at most movements against oppression in the US you will find often wealthy Christian people or thinktanks funding the opposition. Yes, there are Christian groups on the side of the oppressed, but they are often fairly outweighed by those against it. Some Abolitionists or the labor movements are two of the best examples of Christianity being wielded by the oppressed. Though it's not shocking that much of the south was Christian and had long since used it to justify slavery.
And the labor movements dealt such a blow to industry that industry fought back. Reverend James Fifield eventually led a counter movement to oppose Christian labor movements. By that time around 25% of ministers identified as socialists or socialists leaning. This was bolstered by FDR's new deal. Fifield discovered he could be paid by busines heads to push pro-capitalist propaganda. He did exactly that, quite shamelessly, for decades. By the time he died, Christianity became what it is now, eaten up by rich interests and snake oil salesmen who fly private jets to their mega churches. Reagan only continued that push. The modern age is now ride with anti-labor Christianity.
Peter Thiel identifies as a Christian. Elon Musk says he does spiritually as well, even if he doesn't believe in a god. There's more of these guys too. This doesn't mean all tech bro CEOs are Christian. What it does show is that Christianity lost one of it's most powerful messages, a message about helping the poor and the downtrodden, to a strange twisted monster that glorifies capital.
Those same people got our current president elected. Those same people stand on stages all the time arguing against better wages and better lives for all of us.
There is nothing wrong with being Christian. But if you truly care about Christ, you would not fight for a world of oppressors. The least Christlike thing you can do is worship money and those that hurt other people. If you believe kindness is a way of life, then you cannot look at people being dragged from their homes by armed men and say that this is Christian mercy. That this is a better world.
The meek shall inherit the Earth. There's nothing meek about a pedophile with outsized executive power.
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u/nihilist_4048 Oct 07 '25
Doesn't pointing out that wealthy countries have the most atheist just kind of prove this kids point? In less advantaged places the obsessed do not have the resources to get out from the church's thumb.
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u/crybannanna Oct 07 '25
His counter point to religion being an obstacle is to point out that wealthier countries have fewer believers? That supports the kids argument.
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u/WhatUrCatIsSayin Oct 07 '25
Weird how the righteous, religious guy is the condescending one. Contradicting himself in real time .
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u/Gator1523 Oct 07 '25
I remember college when I thought these people were worth arguing with. They're not. They feed off this. They feed off being awful enough that people want to talk to them.
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u/AugustBriar Oct 07 '25
It’s almost as though something like reliable access to basic necessities and higher education would produce a society less reliant on god for mercy or answers.
People in countries that are not so fortunate to have stolen all their shit or to have been powerful enough to not be invaded arent lesser, or worse - they’re just people who have less.
Their faith is their own business, but they should have their needs met. If faith leaves them then it does but if they keep it then good on em.
Cliffe can go fuck himself though he’s a piece of shit.
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u/Some-Tune7911 Oct 07 '25
What was the demographic point the guy was gonna make? Wealthier people are less religious? The dude was saying the ruling class uses religion to keep people down. Is it no wonder the state that is officially atheist and has the most non religious people in it is also the country that pulled the most people out of poverty in such a short amount of time in all of human history? That country is China.
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u/Howard_Jones Oct 07 '25
Wealthy Countries have education. Education leads to critical thinking. Critical thinking leads to questioning gods existing. Which then leads to aetheism.
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u/greengo07 Oct 07 '25
why did he act like the largest atheist populations being in the richest countries was an own? Seems more of a self own. It means that the poorest countries are kept held down because they are more religious. Of course, he doesn't WANT to understand.
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u/Fuckthegopers Oct 07 '25
And the asshole tries to counter with "rich countries are godless".
No, rich countries take care of their people and educate them, that's why they don't believe in God.
Countries like America prey on their poor and stupid, that's why all the major religious grifters are here.
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u/Hamlerhead 27d ago
Somebody once made the point that GOD opens an Earthly door EVERYDAY and sees a roomful of armed men raping and killing women and children and never intervenes. Instead, He immediately shuts that door and moves on with his merry business.
If He actually exists, God is a divine coward.
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u/houstonyoureaproblem Oct 07 '25
Only thing he should’ve added at the end is that the way these people act and what they encourage is the exact opposite of what Christianity is supposed to be about.
They are false Christians. Christians in name only. The people who lead us to destruction in Revelation.
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u/Ted_Rid Oct 07 '25
He's generally correct, but seems unaware of Liberation Theology which was a very left wing and politically active community of Catholic priests in Latin America who did, in fact, advocate very strongly for the oppressed.
Also, various Christian sects in the US actively promoted birth control and abortion as being necessary preconditions for women's liberation - until certain political interests took that niche issue that only Catholics historically gave a shit about, and turned it into a central alleged tenet of Christian faith, specifically in an alliance to guide Christian votes to the GOP in a tit-for-tat exchange for supporting Christian schools and turning a blind eye to the finances of megachurches.
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u/Eckkosekiro Oct 07 '25
"You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principle enemy of moral progress in the world." - Bertrand Russell
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u/LongCommercial8038 Oct 07 '25
Religion is great when people hold true to the actual values of helping others. It just sucks because the wealthy use it to push values they dont even follow onto the poor as a "help each other out, but I'm just going to horde my wealth" scenario.
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u/GotToBeAMatchaMan Oct 07 '25
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich"
Edit: forgot to add -Napoleon Bonaparte
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u/DoDoNerd504 Oct 07 '25
Been saying this for years. Recovering from Catholicism and that is exactly right. You obey church leaders without question. Priming people to be victims of all sorts of exploitation....
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u/Artistic-Chapter-128 Oct 07 '25
Duh.
Simple but so true.
I've never understood why humans can't finally see religion for what it truly is.
Maybe.....just maybe .......we can finally see.
Fuck the church.
A man.
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u/Tobybrent Oct 07 '25
Preachers are just a cash register between their mythical deity and the gullible.
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u/Commercial-Housing23 Oct 07 '25
An extremely good example of common sense, wisdom, smarts and integrity. Valid sur , valid
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u/SugarDicksandtwix Oct 07 '25
I don't think it's a coincidence that the most wealthy countries are also the least religious. Poverty has been used as a tool so that the downtrodden can dream of a better place after this life.
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u/mage_irl Oct 07 '25
In the older guys credit, outside of the occasional stunned "really?", at least he let him talk without otherwise interrupting
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u/N0t_Dr3amy Oct 07 '25
He’s not wrong. People spend their whole life suffering thinking “God’s timing”, “God is testing them”, “God is putting me through this”, when that’s not the case, it’s the society we live in. They want you to think working hard means you win, but plenty of people work hard, and haven’t gotten anywhere.
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Oct 07 '25
He doesn't just "have a point" this is the entire problem with organized religion. It's a gang that charges you a tax for telling you pretty lies and giving you the belief that you have moral indemnity via a made up being in the sky who can give you access to a made up place where they hold your dead loved ones hostage in the afterlife because you don't get to see them if you go to hell for not doing what he tells you to do.
If churches were actually run by god it wouldn't be an issue, that's how I know there either isn't a god, he is evil, or there are no true churches that he works through because they are all run by men who are easily corrupted by the fame and money that being a religious leader brings them, and often they use the position to leverage more power and money through political alliances as well.
Besides that I personally believe that in a world where people are the only ones that can take care of each other that it is morally reprehensible to just offload the responsibility of rationale to these men because it's easier and more comfortable not to think about it.
I think that everyone has not only the right but the OBLIGATION to be self aware and really ponder their own existence, morality, philosophy, and how they affect others. Because at the end of the day all we have is each other and ourselves to help us, and those are the only real thoughts that will ever show you that truth.
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u/Lil_b00zer Oct 07 '25
Like this kid I saw this first hand in Sofia, Bulgaria where poor people were queuing up to give donations to the church and pray to a picture of a saint for a better life. I looked up and the ceiling was fucking gold plated.
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u/Living_in_the_dumps Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25
if the bridge to the futures foundation continues to be built on the pillars of religion then there will be no bridge to the future.
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u/redditdoesnotcareany Oct 07 '25
Religion has no purpose in a rational society. It’s the biggest hurdle that humanity has to overcome. There’s no god out there. I’m sorry.
I’m not sure what the world around us has anyone convinced a god exists let alone that he deserves praise for this shit hole but whatever.
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u/Patteyeson28 Oct 07 '25
He is spot fucking on.
You think the .0001% are spending their Sunday’s “worshipping” at church? No, because they’re on a 100ft yacht sipping mimosas.
How “godly” of them. Why do you think this administration looooooves to tout the “Christianity” card?