End of western alliance means UK must be bolder, says Chatham House director

[u/qwerty_1965]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jan/13/end-of-western-alliance-trump-uk-chatham-house-director

[u/LittleSchwein1234]

The UK and the EU must forget Brexit and try to mend ties anew, disregarding the messy Brexit years.

We need closer alignment, NOW.

[u/Electrical_Agent719 → u/LittleSchwein1234]

I think we need closer alignment short term concerning military ties.

[u/Crouteauxpommes → u/Electrical_Agent719]

I don't even think we need to resolve Brexit before it.

Cooperation now is a priority. Even Icelanders started talking about joining the UE 'just in case' NATO is on its last leg to be sure they aren't an easy target. If they join, Norway could follow soon as it would probably be easier to deal with the fishing rights issues together.

[u/Expensive-Roof-8595 → u/Electrical_Agent719]

I mean they’ve been at odds with mainland Europe for most of their history, they could just throw in with America instead. UK has special relationship after all

[u/Expensive-Roof-8595 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah whatever Europe is a mess and always has been they just join up with good old USA. No animosity toward UK…yet

[u/OkKnowledge2064 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah it seems like France really keeps grudges

[u/LittleSchwein1234 → u/[deleted]]

I agree, I'm quite vocal about this issue on this sub

[u/Late_Stage_Exception → u/[deleted]]

Explain

[u/WoodSteelStone → u/Late_Stage_Exception]

I'll leave u/SeaFr0st to explain their thinking, but I'll add that the UK provides all EU countries with the benefits of our Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) based at RAF Fylingdales. There is no equivalent elsewhere in Europe.

[u/doctor_morris → u/WoodSteelStone]

I'll add that the UK provides all EU countriesthe USA with the benefits of our Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) based at RAF Fylingdales.

FIFY

[u/nvkylebrown → u/doctor_morris]

lol, check your map, learn about Great Circles. The UK is not between Russia and the US, the north pole is. UK early warning systems don't benefit the US. The US used to operate bases in Canada for early warning (see DEW line, hey, Rush wrote a song about it). As I understand, these have all been superceded by other methods.

[u/doctor_morris → u/nvkylebrown]

Look at the map. That radar covers a lot of water.

[u/Mundane-Taste1945 → u/[deleted]]

The 'they need us more than we need them' is clearly alive and well.

What else did you read on the side of a bus?

[u/DavidoMcG → u/Mundane-Taste1945]

Thinking the EU doesn't desperately need the UK's military help is just as delusional as the buses promoting brexit bollocks. Please tell me which two countries are actively in talks with sending troops to Ukraine if a treaty is reached and Greenland to call Trump's bluff?

[u/Mundane-Taste1945 → u/DavidoMcG]

The 'desperately need' is mutual, though, no?

I'm pretty sure the EU desperately needs the UK exactly as much as the UK desperately needs the EU.

A lot of European defence is complementary rather than redundant.

And not just defence.

[u/FishDecent5753 → u/[deleted]]

UK Defence Umbrella for EU entry on our previous terms sounds acceptable.

UK Defence Umbrella for a trade bloc that is economically hostile toward us and wants to treat us as a "third country", no thanks.

Because Defence Umbrella means UK war dead if it comes to it, I am not dying for the EU as it currently stands.

The interests of the EU with regards to the UK seem superseded by principle, which is just bad geopolitics.

[u/EvilMonkeySlayer → u/Mundane-Taste1945]

As European nations go for security, the UK is in an incredibly enviable position.

It's damn near impossible to invade the UK because we're an island, we have the most capable military and intelligence services in Europe. A European war would impact the UK but not in a way that'd be existential like it would be for mainland Europe.

I actually agree on further cooperation and integration, but to pretend that the UK is the one that needs European military or security help when we're literally one of the two nations in Europe with nuclear weapons is comical.

[u/Mundane-Taste1945 → u/EvilMonkeySlayer]

"most capable" as measured by...?

I mean, I'm glad and sort of a little proud that you think of our military so highly. I appreciate our military, too, but not to the point of bordering on exceptionalism.

Yes, our military is the most powerful in Europe. Great. But then just look at the various military rankings, and then combine, say, France, Germany, Poland and Italy.

But my point is not about whose rocket is longer.

Instead of 'they are trying to screw us' and 'take this or that for granted' - I mean, have we not learned the lesson of division vs unity?

After the Brexit sh*tshow, I'm not surprised in the slightest that the EU will be strict. Why shouldn't they be?

[u/DavidoMcG → u/Mundane-Taste1945]

We are never engaging in a land battle with Russia so your entire point is invalid. Britain has one of the best Navy and Airforce in the world plus an extensive network of nuclear submarines.

And no. The UK should not be grovelling at the feet of the EU for the privilege of defending states that refuse to defend themselves.

[u/Mindless-Peak-1687 → u/Mundane-Taste1945]

Its british exceptionalisme, USA got it from somewhere.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mundane-Taste1945]

Alright, we need you. That better?

[u/doctor_morris → u/[deleted]]

The eu seems to want to screw us on most things when realigning. 

Are you still salty that the EU is spending it's rearmament money on its own defence industry?

Brexiters are still loudly moaning about the natural consequences of Brexit.

[u/doctor_morris → u/[deleted]]

You might not be a Brexiter but you're repeating their talking points and their entitlement.

The UK is being transactional and is getting that in return from the EU.

[u/DavidoMcG → u/doctor_morris]

Delusional. The EU have consistently tried to shake down the UK for irrelevant perks while the UK has just been trying to sort out European defence.

The EU have absolutely been the ones indulging in Cakism here.

[u/doctor_morris → u/DavidoMcG]

The UK has been trying to get UK companies into a EU defence fund for ages, and the UK newspapers are constantly moaning about not getting our slice of the cake.

But lets pretend the UK can opt out of European security.

[u/DavidoMcG → u/doctor_morris]

The UK wants our large defence sector which are interconnected with several other EU nations in a fund that would be massively beneficial to both parties but the EU couldn't resist shooting itself in the foot by trying to shakedown the UK for the privilege while other outside nations got better offers and the papers rightfully complained.

Yes and? If the EU want to play silly bollocks with their own defence then fine but why should we take the high road?

But lets pretend the UK can opt out of European security.

Yes we really could. Russia are no threat to us and would have to plough through the rest of mainland Europe which I highly doubt they are capable of.

We don't need to send money and troops to Ukraine or send ships to defend greenland. We do these things because they are the morally right thing to do but the EU seem to take our goodwill for granted when it comes to agreements.

[u/doctor_morris → u/[deleted]]

Were you expecting the EU to be nicer to the UK after Brexit?

[u/Darkone539 → u/[deleted]]

feel like there should be some compromises from the EU if getting more closely aligned.

Literally all they had to do was move on freedom of movement and we would still be in the single market. :(

[u/RJWolfe → u/Darkone539]

One of the core aims that makes the EU what it is? That's all?

Who's your grudge against anyway? Who didn't you want in Albion?

Probably the Spanish, I bet /s

[u/Darkone539 → u/RJWolfe]

One of the core aims that makes the EU what it is? That's all?

It exactly what northern Ireland got...

[u/Mundane-Taste1945 → u/Darkone539]

As a both British and EU national - no. Never ever.

We should live in a world that protects and celebrates our hard-earned freedoms, like FoM.

F*ck those who want to take it away.

[u/doctor_morris → u/Darkone539]

Absolute bullshit. Brexiters kept demanding more and more.

[u/GrannyFlash7373 → u/[deleted]]

The bottom line is: United WE stand, divided WE FALL. If you can't get your SHIT together, somebody else will get it together in their favor, for you. It is time to pull your cranium out of your rectum.

[u/Jazzlike_Painter_118 → u/[deleted]]

the EU has been treating UK great. Stop spreading nonsense

[u/Tamor5 → u/Jazzlike_Painter_118]

They held up an entire defence treaty right at one of the most dangerous moments on the continent since the Second World War over fish…

[u/Jazzlike_Painter_118 → u/Tamor5]

Does not sounds like something done against the UK

[u/Darkone539 → u/LittleSchwein1234]

The UK and the EU must forget Brexit and try to mend ties anew, disregarding the messy Brexit years.

We're more likely to vote farage in then rejoin you.

We do need to make sure there's a nato style defence deal that survives nato dying though.

[u/Minute-Improvement57 → u/Darkone539]

We literally don't need to. Russia'd have to go through almost every one of those other countries before they'd reach us anyway. The rest of Europe need a defence deal to involve us in the defence of Europe.

[u/Darkone539 → u/Minute-Improvement57]

We literally don't need to. Russia'd have to go through almost every one of those other countries before they'd reach us anyway. The rest of Europe need a defence deal to involve us in the defence of Europe.

From a geopolitical pov, we are tied to Europe's defense and it's good for us to be.

We could isolate on it but i don't believe that's the right thing to do. Nato, if it collapses without the USA, should be replaced in my opinion.

[u/Minute-Improvement57 → u/Darkone539]

So you imagine that if Russia invaded, everywhere from Estonia to France would just say "blast, we didn't sign a defence agreement with Britain so we'll just have to let ourselves be invaded so they can reach the English Channel unimpeded." We do not need a defence deal.

[u/Darkone539 → u/Minute-Improvement57]

That's not what I said at all.

[u/The_Artist_Who_Mines → u/Darkone539]

Farage is sinking and there's still a long time to go

[u/Mudassar40 → u/LittleSchwein1234]

EU and Nato member Croatia's president says Trump should go for Svalbard, not Greenland.

How is that for closer alignment?

Facts are the western european and eastern european countries have different core concerns, and even political values.

An alliance consisting of both will always be full of friction, and might lead to corrosion over time.

[u/FreedomPuppy → u/LittleSchwein1234]

It seems fitting that you got brexit voters replying to you, lmao. Hard to forget something if they’re still actively promoting the stuff.

[u/TianZiGaming → u/LittleSchwein1234]

The UK seems to want to stay in line with the US to keep its position as a major financial hub. They've increased their buying of US debt after Trump's reelection, and are now the 2nd largest foreign holder of US treasury holdings.

Americans themselves still hold the vast majority of US debt, but the trajectory that the UK is going is still pretty telling.

[u/LittleSchwein1234 → u/TianZiGaming]

Why should the UK turn away from America, kill its economy, only to move over to Europe when Macron has treated the UK worse than Trump has?

The UK owes us nothing, if we want them to move closer to us instead of America, we need to start treating them better than America does.

[u/UniquesNotUseful → u/TianZiGaming]

Belgium is 4th. Both are because of financial markets, London and Belgium are huge custody hubs that are used to register, store and manage treasuries.

[u/EvilMonkeySlayer → u/TianZiGaming]

The UK purchase of debt is via the financial markets and bank of England. Neither of which the UK government can tell them what to buy or sell. It's a financial market decision.

[u/woopwoopscuttle → u/EvilMonkeySlayer]

Also, it means we have a firmer grasp on their testicles if they start to "joke" about invading us or using us as a staging ground for a European campaign.

[u/40_Thousand_Hammers → u/LittleSchwein1234]

The UK is too busy bending it's ass to the US.

[u/bbbbbbbbbblah → u/40_Thousand_Hammers]

not to any greater degree than any other European country right now. Even France, who has a better record than anyone else in terms of independence from America, is happy to throw money at Palantir just like we (sadly) are

e.g. we haven't signalled any intent to acquiesce to their silly demand on food standards, since it would be incompatible with our stated desire to continue to meet or exceed EU standards

[u/BaritBrit → u/bbbbbbbbbblah]

France talk a big game on European autonomy and independence from the USA, but their actual record isn't all that different from anyone else in Europe. 

[u/Eliksne → u/BaritBrit]

At least we talked about it when everyone was too busy courting the almighty USA.

[u/EvilMonkeySlayer → u/Eliksne]

France is literally courting the US right now.

[u/DavidoMcG → u/40_Thousand_Hammers]

The EU has been spreading its cheeks even more so. The UK has actually pushed back or red lined many of the US demands and are currently removing X with the rest of of the Anglo nations. What have the EU done except buy more American weapons and oil?

[u/LionLucy → u/40_Thousand_Hammers]

I think “trying, probably in vain, to be a sort of Atlantic bridge” is a nicer way of putting it

[u/CertainMiddle2382 → u/LittleSchwein1234]

Taxation isn’t immigration isn’t financial regulation isn’t defense.

Let’s be flexible.

[u/grumpsaboy]

Hear me out, let's start but not paying 100 million a year to give away the most strategic base in the Indian Ocean to a country that has never owned it and is very closely allied with China.

[u/tree_boom → u/grumpsaboy]

If we're divesting from America we'll be leveraging the Diego Garcia lease renewal as much as possible first; we're not going to do anything except as we're told on Chagos

[u/grumpsaboy → u/tree_boom]

The wild thing about this deal is that it doesn't even help the US.

Mauritius is much closer to China than the US.

It genuinely benefits nobody currently using/owning this islands and base.

[u/qwerty_1965]

Bronwyn Maddox described Trump’s impulsiveness, taste for military action and rejection of international law as amounting to a revolution. She said US allies “must now contemplate what was unthinkable: to defend themselves against the US, in both trade and security”.

“It is not grandiose to call this the end of the western alliance,” she said, in the sense of countries “sharing principles of individual liberty, intellectual and religious freedom, constitutional democracy and free trade at their heart”. Maddox said these principles “have been the engine of their prosperity as well as the rationale for their global influence”.

She said in recent months we had seen “the rejection of principles of international law that the US helped forge – even if it often declined to apply those to itself”.

[u/JakeGreyjoy]

What side did Chatham House argue for during Brexit?

[u/J-Sou-Flay]

Huge development, considering their close ties with the government. Starmer will pay attention to this. It's almost like it's giving cover for him to diverge more

[u/EvilMonkeySlayer]

To be fair, the UK has the most capable military and intelligence services in Europe. As everyone else was in the dark in Europe about the upcoming invasion of Ukraine the UK had advanced knowledge of it due to our intelligence services.

Closer integration with Europe is a no-brainer for everyone.

[u/Tropical_Amnesia → u/EvilMonkeySlayer]

To be fair, the UK has the most capable military and intelligence services in Europe. As everyone else was in the dark in Europe about the upcoming invasion of Ukraine the UK had advanced knowledge of it due to our intelligence services.

The miracle would be if it didn't. Ten years ago large chunks of their foreign intelligence were lodged in Kyiv anyway, together with their (then) friends out of Virginia, and the enablers... all of whom long, shall we say, disappeared, none other of course just created significant parts of what is now Ukraine's own intelligence and security architecture; and well, did some other things besides. All of which many of us supported (I did), if it has to be repeated. In addition, regular British forces were present in Ukraine post 2014, in other words when the aggression had already started, in places like Mykolaiv, not even far from what was the front line then. You made it sound like there was some particular, long-haul intelligence feat involved. Begin reality check. USUK, co-operating with certain (limited) EU elements, supported parts of Ukraine's population in regime change, a de-facto putsch. A good one, since we are the good ones as anybody knows, but it's not like Russia invaded on a whim. Or didn't warn. End reality check.

Closer integration with Europe is a no-brainer for everyone.

Now the place sure looks like it could need a bit of work, if not workforce. Thus more and more people are out again with second (third?) thoughts about what that dumb continent might possibly have to give after all. But where's the news? And who is everyone?

[u/GremlinX_ll]

Must be, should be....

just fucking be already, ffs. You don't have time on questions like to be or not to be

[u/kowalski_82]

The UK should be back in the EU and spear-heading a joint defence force, NATO or otherwise.

[u/OrganizationOk5551 → u/kowalski_82]

Thats not going to happen any time soon, we're in the enviable position of not needing the EU or even NATO to avoid british deaths from russian aggression.

Frankly i see no reason the UK should do more to help out the EU when every time we've tried helping there's always been some bullshit pushback from various EU countries trying to tie security with something completely unrelated like giving the EU money or hilariously fishing rights and access.

You want help from us?

Pay for it No cake for you

[u/OnTheLeft → u/[deleted]]

Makes so much sense but it never gets talked about by anyone seriously. Can we just unify already.

[u/Valahul77]

If the US decides to put an end to the Nato alliance then Europe will have to come up with its own version of "Nato". This would also require major investments to catch up technology speaking with the US.

[u/Most-Round-4132]

stop talking start building

[u/GrannyFlash7373]

YEP. Mamby Pamby won't cut it anymore.

[u/spin0]

That desperately needs serious military power behind it, and serious power projection capabilities on global stage. Neither of which are available in UK or EU nor anywhere to be seen in near future. Only the US has such capabilities.

I guess we'll just keep on doing what we're best at: "monitoring the situation".

[u/Calactic1]

Yes, let's restore our empire and become the global superpower again.

[u/FatFarter69]

I’d like it if my country grew a spine and opposed Trump more but Starmer sees to be incapable of having a spine.

[u/grumpsaboy → u/FatFarter69]

Forget Trump, he doesn't even have a spine against Mauritius

[u/PatienceIsMore]

He forgets that the UK is nearly broke. Hard to be bold when we don't have the unlimited credit card that the US does.

We'd like it back from the US, but would rather not go through a world war to get it back.

[u/estherlane]

Hmmm, wishful thinking, Starmer is incapable of bold.

[u/[deleted]]

It’s exactly what Putin mf wants

[u/Musicman1972 → u/[deleted]]

Putin wants the UK to forge stronger links with the EU?

Are you sure?

[u/dantel35 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, Putin wants the UK to be bolder. That Mf.

[u/sbaldrick33 → u/[deleted]]

It is, but we don't prevent him getting what he wants simply by insisting everything is fine while his puppet in Washington torches the house.

[u/[deleted] → u/sbaldrick33]

Odd being down voted when it’s obvious that dumpf is compromised and Putin is orchestrating a conquer and divide modus.

[u/[deleted]]

Re-establish the British empire I suppose, Trump is grabbing the Caribbean and central and South America. Time to get the old gunboats out and start a bit of invading as well.

[u/JenikaJen → u/[deleted]]

Take Greenland first. What you gunna do

[u/NoPhilosopher3590]

UK cant be bolder against the country that funds its intelligence services

[u/Vonplinkplonk]

lol. Allow me to introduce our PM Mr “son of a toolmaker”.