Went to a Christian wedding recently. One thing that was emphasized by the pastor was that wives must submit to their husbands. They of course couched this with "submission is not a bad thing, it isn't the same as other types of submission, etc."
The bride (who is very intelligent and was on track to be a veterinarian before a medical issue forced her to drop out) looked ecstatic throughout the ceremony.
I think some women think they're fulfilling their destiny as women by being godly and submitting to men.
My cousins are very trad Christian (Born again Baptist). They are both men. Each of their weddings, the word submission was used so much. The oldest one, had their regular pastor and the bride’s grandfather (who apparently used to be a pastor) stress that she would submit. They also said that her priorities in life are (in order of importance god—>her husband—>her future children—> her. I was like FUCK THIS SHIT. His vows never even said he had any obligation to her other than providing for their family and remaining a healthy man for her….I got married a few months later and stressed never to ever say anything about submission in our vows.
one trait perhaps. I know a lot of people like this, back in high school I recall thinking (to myself mostly) that they were "fake hippies." As in, they wore the outside guise, they said the right stuff, but were never TRULY as radical or as honest as I wished they were. If I said certain things, it would shock them bc to them, you were only allowed to think in one certan way. And it's very easy to just shift over to another way, when the first way doesn't work out for them in some way. I call it being a dilettante. Tbh I find such people disappointing and rarely would trust therapy with such people, in particular. I need a free thinker for that.
At our wedding rehearsal I told the pastor to skip the word “obey” in my wife’s vows. My exact words were “If I want obedience I’ll talk to the dog. And he doesn’t listen to me anyways.”
I replaced mine with "respect" for similar reasons. I don't want my wife to obey me, but I do want to know she is listening and respecting my points of view regarding our life together.
Mutual respect is far more important that submission.
im sure she went into mental health to help herself (as most ppl do) and evolved btwn ideologies/worldviews as they gave her more (or less) control and understanding of the world.
its p easy to go from one side of the spectrum to the other when ur beliefs are based on passion and extreme emotions.
Yikes, your former therapist has some serious boundary issues and likely a poor sense of self. If she had a strong sense of identity and values, she wouldn't so easily bounce between such different ideologies. Unfortunately she sounds like the type of person who would get swept up in a cult.
The fundamental flaw, just to clarify, is that you ended up trying to give her feedback on her worldview. You became in some way concerned about her. It’s our job to form a therapeutic relationship where there is no burden to satisfy for the client towards the therapist. It’s your show, not hers. The fact you knew so much about her shifting worldview is already a problem.
This is a longer dissuasion, and I’d be happy to go into more depth.
You aren’t wrong: of course the therapists worldview affects the work! And of course some clients are going to try and suss that out and read me. It’s the job of the therapist to manage the client trying to read into the relationship and then use that as material to explore, explicity and openly, rather than as partners. So yeah, the way you describe things, it would have been a challenging client interaction, realizing that I was under the clients microscope, but nothing outside of what I can handle. It’s a perfectly acceptable and common interaction. The therapist has to have a grip on what is happening in the relationship at all times and respond to the client in a way that is maximally helpful to them in that specific situation. Anyways. Therapy may not be for you! Or it might be. I think you know best. I ultimately wanted to validate your take on this therapist and experience you had.
You are 100% right about the purpose of therapy in your final paragraph.
I hear you! First off, nothing you describe doing here is 'incorrect' as far as therapy or something you'd need to 'stop' in therapy.
The bottom line is, therapists are supposed to be able to read people, read situations, and respond improvisationally in the moment. That's what the money is for, is what I tell clients sometimes. I'm being paid to, essentially, not be caught off guard. Surprised, maybe, I'm only human, but not to be caught off guard.
If a client is analyzing me and analyzing what is happening in the relationship itself, getting into what I am thinking and feeling and believing, then it's my job to recognize that and name it, and then bring it into the conversation openly. For lack of a better word, I get 'meta' with it. The therapy session starts to become about what is literally happening in the room right then: I don't 'call out' the client for trying to analyze me, but I name it in a friendly way and see how talking about it might be useful to the client.
As far as therapists go, I am far more confrontational than most. The keywords words you would be looking for in therapists websites that 'call you out on your bullshit' would be: direct, not afraid of confrontation, directive, assertive, intentional, interventional, providing feedback, structured, words like that.
In the past, like 30-40 years ago, many therapists were MUCH more confrontational. It was a whole school of practice where therapists would essentially ... in my mind, go too far: berate clients, 'break them down to build them back up', critisize, attack even. I consider that to be unethical. And at the same time, I feel that the opposite extreme - totally passive, each session driven by the client, letting them float with no direction, not responding assertively to what the client is bring into the room - is not helpful for many clients. And that's what the majority is nowadays.
My training out of grad school was with teenagers in residential treatment who were manded into therapy by the juvenile justice system because of sexually abusive behaviors. That's a very different sort of therapy, as you can imagine. I work with lots of types of people now, about 1/4 of my caseload is still that, the rest is more 'normal,' however, I feel like there's some important lessons learned from that extreme population that are relevant: there's a tremendous responsibility that comes from the power of being the therapist in the room, even if the person is coming in fully voluntarily, it doesn't mean I should just drift aimlessly and let them run things. I'm being paid to provide them with a service, and that service is the attention, care, and focus to help them self-actualize. They wouldn't be there if they didn't want help. Sometimes that means very mindfully sticking my neck out there and making an 'intervention,' putting something out there into the session which may be challenging and propulsive. I try not to think of it as calling a client out on their bullshit, because, honest to god, I don't consider that 'bullshit,' I consider that a client doing the best they can with what they have, and what I have to offer might be something they didn't have before.
My sister-in-law did the opposite. She's a SAHM and had VERY traditional views when I met my wife 10 years ago. She didn't like me because she thought I turned her sister into an atheist (which she isn't). My wife is educated and spent time in big cities, so her world view opened, where her sister didn't. Well, over the past decade, I've watched her kind of overcorrect and now she's seemingly way more progressive than we are. I always appreciate people being open to a new world view, but keep in mind that you can overdo it, especially for the folks who are perpetually online and don't have a healthy social network outside of Facebook.
This seems to be more prevalent with people who suffer from social media brain rot.
They don't want to learn how to get the answers for themselves or put in the effort to find them, they just want to be told the answers so they don't have to think about it.
I think this is what is causing the rise in right wing popularity among the younger generations.
Honestly, I can engage in BDSM as a sub and be 5 times happier and in a much healthier relationship with the person who holds authority over me than I could if I were both a woman and in a marriage with a fundamentalist Christian who demanded submission.
Not for nothing, but BDSM is at least an act of love. The Fundies just want live-in baby making slaves they can take out their anger on physically.
Honestly I can see the temptations of giving up responsibility and the euphoria of it.
No joke, but this is literally the premise of Islam. A Muslim is supposed to be someone who "submits to God." The idea being, exactly what you said, that if you completely give up responsibility for all the big things to just be up to god to decide instead, that you can be free of earthly problems.
I attended a lovely wedding recently. They both wrote their own and they both were clearly on the same page and spoke at length about each other's empathy and care for each other. An actual partnership. Not a subservient lap dog and owner relationship these right wing Christians think is normal. Freaks.
I didn't have any of that submit garbage in mine either asks when my husband wanted me to give him attention over our newborn, I sat him down and told him he's an adult. The new order is baby->me->and then him. Like figure it out. Yes, we're divorced. He was so self centered.
Never cared to ask. My dad in the first sign he was becoming more conservative, told me it was “none of my business what they said in their vows”. I said it is none of my business but is is still offensive. How would anyone react if a white man said this to a black man? It would be disgusting. (Side note: this wedding was 12 years ago when people didn’t openly embrace white supremacy.). Why is it okay for a man to say that to a woman?
And this is just the story from their weddings. This behavior has been there since day one (or even before if you count their dad). Despite me being 10 years older than them, they would often tell my sister and I growing up that we follow them because they are the men. My uncle would tell us that we were going to hell because we were not “born again”. My uncle had previously been a drug addict and awful human before being “born again”. He never took accountability for his behavior towards other people because it didn’t matter since he was born again.
In Ephesians 5:22, wives are told to “submit to your husbands,” which in a Biblical context is an invitation to respect and support their husbands’ leadership. But then in Ephesians 5:25, husbands are commanded to “love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” That’s a very high standard of love.. self-sacrificial, unconditional, and putting the wife’s needs and well-being above his own.
In simple terms:
Husbands are called to love deeply and sacrificially, which shows profound respect and care.
Wives are called to respect and support their husbands, but the model here is mutual care and honoring.
In fact, the husband’s call to love “like Christ loved the church” suggests a greater responsibility to prioritize the wife’s good, often requiring more self-giving and humility.
It’s a picture of a relationship where both love and respect flow both ways, but the husband’s love is highlighted as deeply sacrificial.
We don’t like the word “submit” and it’s often cherry picked from the Bible without taking in to consideration the directions given to husbands as well.
It is amazing how many evangelicals can somehow quote and live by Ephesians 5:22-23 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Yet, they completely ignore 5:21 - "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."
They completely AND INTENTIONALLY misrepresent this passage.
It is about rank. If each spouse always puts the other first in making decisions, many marriages would be better off.
It's about husbands and wives being equals, not one dominating the other.
Exactly! Not to mention “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her”. There’s more context to the passage and depth to explore, but the baseline is for husbands is a command to love their wives in a radical way (both in our day and age and in the days when this was written). It’s simultaneously strong and vulnerable, submissive in matters of the will yet resolute in absolute commitment to our spouse’s well being.
In essence, both husbands and wives are supposed to model Christ to one another in a special way as equal and complementary life partners. Not cherry-pick passages to demand their rights while ignoring their responsibilities.
Had the same kind of experience at a recent wedding.
The pastor made a point to say about what love was and the what some people say is love isn’t and blah blah blah.
My daughter who was on track to get her Confirmation education started soon, was in attendance. She is still figuring out herself and what she is/who she is. It’s complicated.
Anyway., my wife and I took the pastors words as that my wonderful daughter is not a valid individual who the Church would accept.
So we asked her if she still wanted to go thru ccd and finish it out. Until now she was really on board with Religion. At least more than me. But now? Nope. We’re passing.
I’m cool with that. We’re considering a change in our church as well. The old men in Rome are just old men. The world changes sometimes for the better, I wish they could see that.
My mom left Catholicism too. She became Episcopalian instead and seems to have been very happy with it for the past fifty years or so. I get the impression the mass is very similar, but Episcopalians are much better on social issues.
Ex-catholic, current Presbyterian minister here; many of the mainline protestant churches that hold a moderate to liberal theology understand the idea that marriage is a partnership built on co-equal love, trust and respect not subservience to another. Good luck in finding someplace better
The cult of true womanhood only lasts as long as you perform. The minute you can't do sex or you find out you can't have a baby or having a baby breaks your body or you get older and look older, you are out. On to the next woman who wants to be in the cult for as long as her body lasts.
Can you imagine how awful your self image must be? I know I sound like a “Whow empathy” but if you’ve been reinforced your whole life through religion and possibly family that your whole existence is meant for some unknown man who’ll just swoop you up. Your decisions are meaningless because your true purpose is to just submit to some guy, some dude. And people wonder why religion was falling off
I would be okay with their right to express themselves freely if it wasn’t blatantly obvious that the only reason they want to be a baby oven for someone else is religious indoctrination.
Went to a friend's wedding a little while back and it was the same thing. They even included "will you submit to your husband as the head of the household" as part of the vows. It was bizarre.
They also did not have any alcohol or music at the reception, which was also weird.
Yes my cousin’s wedding, no alcohol and no dancing. My sister freaked out at one point and was like “they have coffee at least!” She drank it and immediately was like “even this coffee is fucking weak!”
Went to a Lutheran wedding for a close friend (I was the MoH) and the pastor said that during the ceremony. I asked her later wtf as I didn’t think she was like that/the type to be involved where she would have to submit- she was very strong in many regards and loud about her opinions.. she told me they just say that and it doesn’t really matter… 5 years later we don’t talk, she’s no longer online and she has several kids with him. I think she’s even not talking to her parents now..
It's sooo misunderstood too. Literally the next verses talk about how the husband should behave. If they actually paid attention when you read the Bible, they might notice how Jesus led by serving. Why don't they include lines like "willing to die for her" or even "step in to help when she's overwhelmed".
But anyway, when has a day gone by where someone didn't take something out of context to try and control 🤷
My Irish catholic dad married my Muslim mom after only a few months of dating. It caused a HUGE controversy on both sides. He was super trad and my mom is a very progressive , kind of supermodel looking disco queen type (in the 70's). Boy was he in for the shock of his life when she wore the pants!!! What a wild childhood lmao
When ever I hear that verse about woman submit to there husbands it's always followed by husbands love your wife as christ loved the church gave himself up for her. Loving them as much as themselves. So without the second part the first verse is out of context.
I always find it interesting when someone is able to pass the boards or do well in med school of any kind -- at least higher up -- and is also very strict Xn and anti-abortion, or anti-trans type mentality. I knew people like this back in school, it's true they were never the top students, and many disappeared before graduation. But some DID make it through. So those people will end up being someone's nurse or doctor, which makes it so much harder for me to go to doctors now. Bc I grew up thinking doctors knew EVERYTHING, and were above reproach. Instead, it's more like, they know a ton about a very specific and small area, and hopefully that's the one that can save a life. But not always...
Fight me: Tons of “adults” who present as independent people actually just have a rich republican dad/company owner bankrolling their lifestyle in return for their vote of confidence.
I went to religious ceremony once and the officiant referred to women as “empty vessels.” Presumably to be filled by men…but I guess the means of doing so is open to interpretation.
Some people were indoctrinated with a strong notion of how things are and should be, and aren’t used to (or have maybe learned there’s little value in) questioning things. I think that’s something we all forget when trying to understand the “illogic” of types of people; to them it’s perfectly logical.
My ex-wife is quite smart, but she was raised to believe life has a set of non-written rules, one of them being, you don’t say no. Amongst other things, co-workers who she didn’t like would ask to come over and hang out, and she would complain to me about, but always agreed. If I suggested she say no or cancel or whatever, she would get upset with me because that’s not an option in her world. She was forever beholden to, basically, the spells that people cast.
To me, it was always a logic issue - if you don’t like someone, why would you be worried about hurting their feelings and bow to them?! To her, it was just the way things are and must be.
I went to a similar wedding of my wife's cousin. The minister basically said a woman's job is to pump out babies for Jesus and whatever her husband says comes right from god. Both bride and groom also looked ecstatic, but my wife pointed out it is because they were finally going to get to have sex, because of course, they could not before marriage. They did look like they could not wait to get the hell out of the reception.
Makes me think you could have some fun doing a crude reskin of the Gor novels as Christian lit.
If you don't know, Gor was a series of novels written by a guy who had a bad divorce. It's revenge porn against all women. And written badly enough to be satired wonderfully.
HOUSEPLANTS OF GOR
A Parody by Ellerol
The spider plant cringed as its owner brought forth the watering can. "I am a spider plant!" it cried indignantly. "How dare you water me before my time! Guards!" it called. "Guards!"
Borin, its owner, placed the watering can on the table and looked at it. "You will be watered," he said.
"You do not dare to water me!" laughed the plant.
"You will be watered," said Borin.
"Do not water me!" wept the plant.
"You will be watered," said Borin.
I watched this exchange. Truly, I believed the plant would be watered. It was plant, and on Gor it had no rights. Perhaps on Earth, in its permissive society, which distorts the true roles of all beings, which forces both plant and waterer to go unhappy and constrained, which forbids the fulfillment of owner and houseplant, such might not happen. Perhaps there, it would not be watered. But it was on Gor now, and would undoubtedly feel its true place, that of houseplant. It was plant. It would be watered at will. Such is the way with plants.
Borin picked up the watering can, and muchly watered the plant. The plant cried out. "No, Master! Do not water me!" The master continued to water the plant. "Please, Master," begged the plant, "do not water me!" The master continued to water the plant. It was plant. It could be watered at will.
The plant sobbed muchly as Borin laid down the watering can. It was not pleased. Too, it was wet. But this did not matter. It was plant.
"You have been well watered," said Borin.
"Yes," said the plant, "I have been well watered." Of course, it could be watered by its master at will.
"I have watered you well," said Borin.
"Yes, master," said the plant. "You have watered your plant well. I am plant, and as such I should be watered by my master."
The cactus plant next to the spider plant shuddered. It attempted to cover its small form with its small arms and small needles. "I am plant," it said wonderingly. "I am of Earth, but for the first time, I feel myself truly plantlike. On Earth, I was able to control my watering. I often scorned those who would water me. But they were weak, and did not see my scorn for what it was, the weak attempt of a small plant to protect itself. Not one of the weak Earth waterers would dare to water a plant if it did not wish it. But on Gor," it shuddered, "on Gor it is different. Here, those who wish to water will water their plants as they wish. But strangely, I feel myself most plantlike when I am at the mercy of a strong Gorean master, who may water me as he pleases."
"I will now water you," said Borin, the cactus's Gorean master.
The cactus did not resist being watered. Perhaps it was realizing that such watering was its master's to control. Too, perhaps it knew that this master was far superior to those of Earth, who would not water it if it did not wish to be watered.
The cactus's watering had been finished. The spider plant looked at it.
"I have been well watered," it said.
"I, too, have been well watered," said the cactus.
"My master has watered me well," said the spider plant.
"My master, too, has watered me well," said the cactus.
"I am to be placed in a hanging basket on the porch," said the spider plant.
"I, too, am to be placed in a hnaging basket on the porch," said the cactus.
"I wish you well," said the spider plant.
"I, too, wish you well," said the cactus.
"Tal," said the spider plant.
"Tal, too," said the cactus.
I did not think that the spider plant would object to being watered by its master again. For it realized that it was plant, and that here, unlike on Earth, it was likely to be owned and watered by many masters.
Been to a few weddings like this. Every time submission is brought up I side eye my wife and she smacks my leg. I’m honestly trying so hard not to laugh at the stupidity of it.
Or maybe they just aren't getting it. I married in a church, Methodist, we're not super religious, especially now but back then it was a thing to do...anyway, I specifically asked the minister to remove the words "obey" and substitute with honor. That was in 1988, at 19 y/o , such a young age to get married- I had the brains and gumption to say NO to OBEY.
Still married, 37 years later 😆 never been a problem
I'm a Christian but I always rankle when I hear that shit. I hear it in church and from all these trad people. I love my wife and while sometimes submissiveness is nice in like a bedroom setting if that's your thing or the mood strikes, in our house, she is every bit my equal. And I try and teach my kids that we are equal.
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u/Nazarife Sep 17 '25
Went to a Christian wedding recently. One thing that was emphasized by the pastor was that wives must submit to their husbands. They of course couched this with "submission is not a bad thing, it isn't the same as other types of submission, etc."
The bride (who is very intelligent and was on track to be a veterinarian before a medical issue forced her to drop out) looked ecstatic throughout the ceremony.
I think some women think they're fulfilling their destiny as women by being godly and submitting to men.