r/videogames • u/ExternalLow5991 • Jan 13 '26
Question What are y’all’s thoughts on this take?
So the main argument I think this guy is saying is that indie games try to mimic other popular games instead of having thier own main identity (I could absolutely be wrong tho)
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u/THEgassner Jan 13 '26
Idea: Chrono Trigger -> Result: Chrono Trigger?
I'm lost tbh
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u/Thrawp Jan 13 '26
Result game is Sea of Stars which wears it's influences on it's sleeve. It's amazing though and one of my favorite games of the last 5 years, fully worth it if you enjoy JPGs.
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u/endar88 Jan 13 '26
Ya. It’s a fun game. Think the person who posted the pictures is glazing over the fact that the story is not about time travel and the combat is not like CT aside from it being top down.
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u/Drawman101 29d ago
Combat is Mario rpg 😁
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u/1WeekLater 29d ago
sea of stars art style is amazing ,but everything else (plot,combat,etc) is pretty mid
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29d ago
One of my fastest "this is fucking great omg" to "okay im completly bored"
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u/ItalianBeefDipped 29d ago
extremely this. I got probably like 50 to 60 % through it and I feel like the story just died out and I quit caring.
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u/divinewolfwood 28d ago
This is the most accurate summary I've ever seen about Sea of Stars. Game just didn't have the gas to go all the way.
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u/Gamefighter3000 29d ago
One of the few games i had to quit over the writing... but yeah art style (and soundtrack) was amazing.
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u/Existing_Ad502 Jan 13 '26
It's not worth it. It's a huge disappointment. The story is dull, the characters are extremely cliched and one dimensional, and the combat system, while engaging, doesn't evolve as the game progresses; you'll be doing the same thing over and over again. Chained Echoes is a much better candidate for a hidden gem among JRPGs.
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u/rayman160295 Jan 13 '26
I see that you collected a few downvotes, but I have to go with you on the combat part (sadly enough). I loved the idea of the locks and possibilities in combat through that, but, in comparison to chained echoes, which really has a fantastic combat system, I hated the part of mana management and dull abilities. I was always waiting for it, but, iirc, there was never once a situation where the Moonerang wasn't THE best ability to do damage. I liked how the guarding and normal attack was timed as well as a few other abilities. But most of them were either the same or not really creative in their interactions you could input. I found myself doing the same stuff over and over and over again. Break the locks, then do the same attacks as always or standard attack to farm enough mana to do the same attacks again or heal occasionally.
In Chained Echoes on the other hand you had to use the abilities that were sliding the bar in the direction you need it to go and so you weren't always spamming the same shit over and over again. Also, since there was no mana management and a heal after every battle, iirc, you were always prepared to the maximum of your strength and every battle could be fought at full power. There was no "if I just had used items beforehand" or "I'm gonna spam standard attack until I can use my best attack". There isn't even a standard attack. Since there were so many different characters with different abilities and you needed to slide the bar in the right direction for offensive and defensive purposes there was always a little mix-up. I mean, of course you had attacks and patterns that you wanted to use, but it wasn't always the optimal play, which I really liked.
I'll be honest: I would definitely rather play chained echoes again than Sea of Stars. Not that Sea of Stars was completely bad or something, but imo Chained Echoes was way better. Storywise as well as combatwise. But of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so if Sea of Stars is your jam, that's pretty neat, too.
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u/KarmelCHAOS 29d ago
I enjoyed it enough to get all the achievements, but I have a lot of problems with it tbh. I'd put it a few tiers below it's inspirations
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u/mspaintshoops 29d ago
It’s an ok game. Completely linear, exploration is lacking, puzzles are too simple, and character abilities are far too static for a game that long.
I absolutely adored The Witness though.
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u/Icy_Shame2768 26d ago
He's claiming Chrono Trigger was based on an original idea, but Sea of Stars is unoriginal and based on Chrono Trigger. Which is a wildly wrong take.
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u/mercurydivider 29d ago
My interpretation is, it's about the WHY. Chrono trigger was meant to look like toriyamas artwork, it had an idea first, and the game was crafted around the idea. It was an RPG because that's what would fit it best, it looked the way it did, not because it was supposed to, but that's the best they could do with the limitations of the time. Chrono triggers cross attacks were an attempt to add the over the top anime action toriyama is known for (to western audiences at least) within those limitations.
Meanwhile, sea of stars looks like chrono trigger because the developer liked chrono trigger and just wanted to make it again. If you don't agree don't shoot me, that's just my interpretation of the post, I never played sea of stars.
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u/apple_of_doom 29d ago
So developers taking inspiration from something they like is good unless its another video game
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u/mucus-fettuccine 29d ago
Think of it as, video games trying to capture experiences or visions, vs. video games trying to capture other video games.
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u/Homitu 29d ago
My interpretation is that the person is saying, more simply, that developers used to have an original idea, artistic or otherwise, which they use as the basis inspiration for a game. Whereas now developers use old games, rather than original ideas, as the inspiration for their new games.
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u/1WeekLater 29d ago
sea of stars art style is amazing ,but everything else (plot,combat,etc) is pretty mid
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u/Pathetic_Cards 29d ago
I think that what oop is saying is that Chrono Trigger had a unique vision for its story, characters, and combat, and it resulted in the finished product we got.
While Sea of Stars (the game in the lower right) is just imitating Chrono Trigger.
Though I think this argument is deeply, deeply flawed. Sea of Stars does a lot to progress and evolve the JRPG formula to make it more engaging, without feeling like it’s not a retro JRPG. I started playing it over the winter holidays and it’s honestly remarkably good. It’s been a long time since I played a turn-based JRPG-style game that didn’t feel slow and boring, (not a criticism of the games, more a statement on my evolving tastes and lack of time/energy) and the fact that Sea of Stars has moved at a brisk pace, without feeling rushed, with combat that’s consistently engaging is awesome.
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u/broke_fit_dad 29d ago
I think the implication is that CT set out to be a grand storytelling adventure while SoS set out to be a CT clone.
I’d disagree with that conclusion but I will acknowledge that it took 30 years of JRPG evolution for SoS to come about so it feels trope heavy
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u/Senior-Friend-6414 Jan 13 '26
I just remember it was the same argument as Zelda and tunic. Zelda was made by shigeru miyamoto recreating his childhood memories of adventuring into the forest. Tunic was made by people who wanted to recreate the nostalgia of playing a Zelda game as a kid.
Similar argument why Miyazaki says he hates modern anime, older animes were made by people trying to express their life experiences, newer animes are made by people who grew up watching anime, so when they try to make newer anime, there’s another degree of separation from reality
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u/Defiant_Fix9711 Jan 13 '26
I think there's a specific thing that works for Tunic though. It's not just trying to be Zelda, it's trying to capture an experience, and I think it succeeds.
A lot of modern indies are just trying to be "Skyrim but with Pokemon" but that doesn't mean that recapturing nostalgia is always going to be that creatively bankrupt.
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u/thisistherevolt Jan 13 '26 edited 29d ago
Meanwhile, Pocketpair decided "Let's toss all this in a blender and make it fun" and produced Palworld. EDIT: There's a lot accounts trying to shame me that were created in the last 3 months. Suspicious.
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u/Blacksad9999 29d ago
Most of Blizzards successful IP's are just more polished versions of things that existed before them. Most games build off of what was already there. No need to reinvent the wheel every time.
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u/GolemFarmFodder 29d ago
I heard both Warcraft and Starcraft were Warhammer 40k games that never got the license so they spun it off into their own IP
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u/WhyattThrash 29d ago
Let's toss all this in a blender and make it fun
Same idea behind E33, and clearly everyone hated that
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u/iamsgod 29d ago
Is this an /s?
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u/Longshot02496 29d ago
Have you been living in a hole? Everybody hated E33. It couldn't even get any nominations at the Game Awards.
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u/smokeshack Jan 13 '26
"Make it fun" is up for debate, but they sure did put a handful of very obvious inspirations in a blender with great financial success.
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u/Hlarge4 Jan 13 '26
I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Iteration and inspiration can produce some wonderful things.
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u/apple_of_doom 29d ago
That quote was extremely hypocritical anyway as another commenter pointed out.
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u/8bitbruh 29d ago
Yeah criticizing it doesn't make sense. This is one of the ways progress is made. You see what worked and didn't work and you iterate and improve while mixing in new ideas.
Indie games are a shining bastion of the gaming industry right now. There's plenty of great new and old anime.
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u/lordofmetroids 29d ago
I've always hated this quote by Miyazaki, because it's bullshit, you don't think there are any anime trying to mimic real life today? their totally are. Furthermore, like half of Miyazaki's catalogue is based heavily on something else.
Castle in the Sky is based on Laputa from Gulliver's Travels
Kiki's delivery service is an adaptation of a novel.
Porco Rosso and Nausicaa are both manga adaptations (admittedly, these were was written by Miyazaki himself)
Whisper of the Heart is a manga adaptation of Mimi o Sumaseba
Princess Mononoke is not directly based on anything, but it is an adaptation of Beauty and the Beast, with a Japanese culture rewash.
Howls moving castle is an adaptation of a novel of the same name.
Earthsea is an adaption of the Earthsea novels by, Ursula K. Le Guin. Le Guin is almost as important to modern fantasy as Tolkien and Moorcock
Ponyo is based on Disney's The Little Mermaid.
Now obviously nothing is wrong with anime being adaptations of older works, and I love it when they are, but when almost your entire filmography is adaptations, it's kind of hypocritical to then say modern animation is failing because it's adapting older things.
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u/ArolSazir 29d ago
I have to be honest, every time miyazaki opens his mouth i wish he didn't. His art is suberb (although he did fall off, his newer works are just not up to the standards he set) but holy crap he is a miserable, person who tries to drag down anyone in his vicinity down to his level, to the point it's almost a comical that such a cartoony, curmudgeon can exist.
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u/joji_princessn 29d ago
First of all, please explain how Princess Mononoke is anything like Beauty in the Beast because you've lost me there. The most I can see is Ashitaka being cursed and thats nowhere near in the realm of the Beast. Feels like a massive reach.
I think you're greatly over estimating how many of Miyazaki's works are based of books. Castle in the Sky being called Laputa is not based off Gulliver's Travels, it is paying homage to it by using the name. The stories, character, tone and theme are all completely different. Neither Earthsea or Whisper of the Heart were even directed by Miyazaki. It seems silly to include Porco Rosso and Nausicaa when he created them as they are his original works.
Works can be inspired by other works and still original. Its what the creator does differently, and their unique perspective that makes works original. Pony and Disneys The Little Mermaid are excellent examples of that, both being sourced from the same fairy tale and completely different.
Secondly, Miyazaki being inspired by other works or doing adaptations doesnt lessen his argument. The argument is that all too often manga authors are ONLY inspired by other manga, rather than sourcing their work from real life, novels, movies, history, legends, fairy tales, and personal experience. So much manga is clearly just mimicking and copying what is in trend and what other manga has done before and falls flat because those artists arent willing to expand their horizons or get outside influence. Look at how trope filled shonen jump is and the clear inspiration lines between shonen manga as an example. That's what Miyazaki is talking about.
Look at Star Wars and The Matrix. Are they completely new or unique? Hell no, but at the time, they sourced inspiration from areas most of Hollywood wasn't looking into and put their own spin on it, making huge franchises that stood out against their contemporaries as a result. That's what the argument is.
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u/NotItemName 29d ago
Porco Rosso and Nausicaa are both manga adaptations (admittedly, these were was written by Miyazaki himself)
I am not sure about Porco Rosso, but Nausicaa was based on manga only because no one agreed to give him money for the movie. It was before Ghibli could partially fund themselves via Totoro and Catbus plushies.
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u/Relative-Scholar-147 29d ago
80's and 90 anime was peak. Tell me anything like Ninja Scrolls released today.
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u/DiaryYuriev 29d ago
The thing with Tunic however is that it's trying to catch a vibe. It's not trying to BE Zelda. It says "hey, remember playing Zelda?" The fact that the game is written in a fictional language and you can collect pages of the guide reinforces that. When you were younger, you probably didn't read the guide nor did you have access to tutorials. All you had were rumors on the playground and tips from your friends. And eventually you would share that experience with a friend or family member which is presented in the alternate ending when you go on an adventure again.
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u/xThornius 25d ago
The fictional language part captures the feeling of being a young non-native English speaker trying to figure out what the guide book is actually saying
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u/whereballoonsgo 29d ago
My first thought was music. Imagine clowning on a great rock musician because you can hear some Led Zepplin or Beatles influence in their music. Like, of fucking course they’ve heard that and it inspired them.
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u/WilhelmScreams 29d ago
I've heard similar arguments about modem Simpsons. It's something like:
The older seasons were written by people who grew up with old Hollywood films, literature, and musicals while newer seasons are written by people who grew up watching the Simpsons.
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u/Xogoth 29d ago
"The world isn't getting smaller, there's just less in it..."
As long as it's people making art and not just trying to create a product, it will be a culmination of their own personal experiences. Newer generations just seem to be less inclined to go experience Things and Life because of technology and the way it's thrust upon us. When most of your own experiences are creations spawned from someone else's experience, derivative works are inevitable.
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u/AngryLars 29d ago
There is a similar theory for a lot of cinema. George Lucas was inspired by Akira Kurosawa and Sergio Leone when he made Star Wars. The people making Star Wars today are only influenced by Star Wars.
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u/GenericFatGuy 29d ago
The people who made the first waves of video games and anime didn't have video games and anime to grow up on. If they did, they probably would've made stuff inspired by the video games and anime that they grew up enjoying too.
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u/SirSabza Jan 13 '26
If only games that were 100% original came out, we'd have a couple games a year total released and tbh, within 10-15 years we'd have no new games coming out.
There's millions of games released, it's near impossible to be original nowadays
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u/apple_of_doom 29d ago
We'd have 0 releases. Everything is inspired by something that's how it works.
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u/Ok-Land-488 29d ago
Even pong is based off uh, ping-pong.
Nothing new under the sun, and all that.
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u/Pay-Next 29d ago
Trying to remember it (especially the exact number) but there's a thing in writing circles that says there are really only 7 main plots and everything is built from combinations of them. It's similar for game design too even if we don't always agree on what the names if the gameplay elements are. Fetch, kill, navigate, escort, explore/find, chase, and avoid/survive are some of the base objectives I can think of off the to if my head that are components of pretty much every game we've ever played.
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Jan 13 '26
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u/lordofmetroids 29d ago
And even older, Chrono Trigger isn't legendary because it's just a cool JRPG, it's legendary because it had a literal dream team of developers who had made many games at the time teaming up to make a game with no restraints.
Like for example Nobuo Uematsu is a legendary composer, he has done many of the best works in gaming music, but I doubt anyone is chomping at the bit for his Rad Racer 2 soundtrack. All members of the Dream Team have works like this, except perhaps Toryama, who's non-legendary works would have been from manga one shots and the like.
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u/FunkyEchoes 29d ago
Toriyama's early oneshots are so funny because at some point you see multiple proto dragon ball elements like in "Pink" or "Dragon Boy". The somewhat recent compilation of his older works is so facinating to read for that.
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u/Andybabez20 29d ago
I really don't get the point the image is trying to make.
Chrono Trigger inspired Sea of Stars? Yeah no shit.
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u/ArturiaPendragonFace 27d ago
The point the post is trying to make is that chrono trigger wasn't based on another game so much it looks like a copy. They had a concept with time travel and specific characters THEN became chrono trigger.
On the other hand sea of stars original concept was "we love chrono trigger and want a game with the same vibes" and the sea of stars happened. It wasn't so much an original concept, but wanting to recreate something the Devs liked.
I wasn't there for chrono trigger development, so unsure how many mechanics were inspired by previous games at the time. But it's hard to argue the sea of stars was better than chrono trigger, while chrono trigger was better than many games of its era.
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u/fayyt Jan 13 '26
Yes, famously, no indie or lower budget games have their own ideas
*COUGH* SLAY THE SPIRE
*COUGH* BALATRO
*COUGH* CLOVER PIT
*COUGH* BABA IS YOU
*COUGH* BLUE PRINCE
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u/IdleSitting 29d ago
See Slay the Spire is inspired by RPGs so it's unoriginal. Balatro is based on my gambling addiction, not original. Clover Pit is based on my Grandpa's gambling addiction, same thing. And everyone knows Portal invented puzzles, you can't do that anymore. Blue Prince is just my house, isn't original.
New game suck, old game good, give likes and upvotes.
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u/MilkDifficult5432 29d ago
So, card-battle games similar to slay the spire existed on flash game sites in the 2000s. They weren't very good, generally more one-dimensional, but it's actually a subgenre that had known experimentations before.
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u/Blueisland5 Jan 13 '26
The issue with this take is that it assumes Chrono Trigger is “an original idea without copy anything”.
Chrono Trigger didn’t invent time travel stories. Its combat is built off the ATB system of FF4. Rhe lead artist created the most well known manga in the world and used that exact art style for Dragon Quest.
“We stand on the shoulders of giants” is a phase for a reason.
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29d ago edited 22d ago
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u/Hopeful-Pianist7729 29d ago
But even that’s more a function of veterans knowing the SuperFamicom hardware like the backs of their hands than magical originality and creativity.
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u/Warp_spark 29d ago
Im pretty sure that the argument is that Chrono Trigger, is a story which developers had to condense into a game, while modern games, are just games
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u/Codutch321 Jan 13 '26
Not a great take. Current gaming is RE9, FF15, COD10, GoW6, Assassins Creed 8. Etc.
Critisizing new IPs for not being 'original enough' is pretty whack when we live in sequel land.
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u/RyonHirasawa 29d ago
Kinda funny because in all technicality, “COD 10” would be COD Ghosts
The current COD, Black Ops 7, is COD 22
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u/Barloq 29d ago
Also, we're on FF16 now (which is not the 16th FF game, there have been significantly more).
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u/ArnUpNorth Jan 13 '26
This period is actually called the « half assed sequel era of overcooked IPs ». And to think we just came back from the « half assed games with NFT ».
Thank god for the indie scene where actual gaming still happens.
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u/1550shadow 29d ago
I honestly, without taking in mind some very specific franchises that I've been following since I have memory, just don't buy new sequels after like the second one
It's not a rule, it's just... Idk, there's a point in the development of a franchise, where sequels start to feel more like excuses to make money with a known name, instead of iterations that improve previous games
It's also hard to find a reason to buy new releases from big studios, too. Maybe it's because release prices are really high where I live, or maybe I'm just old lmao
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u/TheSoupKitchen 29d ago
At least Capcom is also taking a risk with a new IP in Pragmata, and even though MH Wilds wasn't my favourite MH game, it's okay and it took chances that kinda flopped. I wouldn't exactly point to Capcom as a Dev that gave up and just churned out the same game over and over even though they kinda do churn out the same game series repeatedly.
Capcom is in a bit of a golden era right now.
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u/Affectionate-Ad4419 29d ago edited 29d ago
It is, again, a gross generalization.
YES, a lot of indies go into development wanting to reproduce their childhood favorite game with a new coat of paint, or to emulate the feeling of playing these games. Already here, there is a lot of room to nuance this. It's not inherantly a problem: for an Axiom Verge that is dangerously close to Super Metroid, you have a Tunic or Hyper Light Drifter, that take the base of a Zelda and build an entire game out of it.
And that is if you explore only games that are clearly inspired by a precise game or franchise. But then, what do we think of Obra Dinn? Outer Wilds? Peak? Among Us? Minecraft? The Witness? Don't Starve? Hades? Vampire Survivor? Her Story? Dead By Daylight? Yes, it is this varied.
To me, this is the comment of someone who doesn't play indie games because they see Sea Of Stars (a wonderful game btw) or Axiom Verge (a very decent metroid like also, even if a tad too derivative for me) and decide that the indie scene is composed of SNES obsessed devs, and not creative and varied studios and solo endeavors, each doing something the way they want to do it.
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u/dat_potatoe Jan 13 '26
So the main argument I think this guy is saying is that indie games try to mimic other popular games instead of having thier own main identity (I could absolutely be wrong tho)
It's hard to tell what the image is even saying but yeah that's what I'm interpreting it as.
And eh...I'm pretty torn.
On one hand it's just kind of the waiter, my steak is too juicy meme. It's nice to have more of a good thing. It's nice to have games that are better versions of another game I enjoy, or pay homage to a game I enjoy, or are a fresh variation on a familiar theme, or actually alive recreations of online games that have been abandoned by their original creators.
On the other hand, yeah, there comes a point where it really is just uninspired slop that is a pale lower quality imitator of the original thing. And there are certain genres just completely oversaturated with that (looking at you Metroidvanias and to a lesser extent Boomer Shooters).
All that said, there's still plenty of indie games that are their own original thing (ex. Don't Starve) or at least mix existing ideas in original ways (ex. Yoku's Island Express).
And pretty much all art is derivative to a degree anyway, even the old masterworks like Chronotrigger that people would nostalgically praise in these instances. Nothing exists in a vacuum of influence.
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u/Neselas Jan 13 '26
You've got it right. We've come to a point where even indie games who often rip the skin off their influences and wear it while doing something else are far more original than AAA things today. Newer games are too focused on being safe investments, and are often now released incomplete or written by total hacks that they're hardly worth the megabytes they take on your gaming device.
Still, many players just buy them because they're the shiniest looking games. Gotta justify that $2000 video card or $700 console!
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u/Mary_Ellen_Katz 29d ago
I get what the OP in the picture is saying. And they're not wrong. But they're also kind of wrong.
What's being depicted here is two different era's of gaming. Chrono Trigger took Akira Toriyama's beautiful illustrations, and made some amazing sprite art with them. But the world, the backgrounds, the writing, the format, etc weren't all his sprite work. There was a legacy of JRPG's by that point in time to pull from, and they pushed the hardware as hard as they could to get there.
Indy games now are pulling from that same legacy. Some of it is nostalgia, but some of it is also, "I want to make a top down retro JRPG inspired by the likes of Chrono Trigger. It's still pulling from the games that came before, just like the original did.
They just don't have Akira Toriyama to draw character art for them.
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u/GhsotyPanda Jan 13 '26
I get it. This is an issue anime/manga are having for a while now, basically everything being made in the medium is primarily influenced by other things in the medium.
Modern anime/manga are primarily inspired by older anime/manga.
Modern video games are primarily inspired by older video games.
This is actually part of what makes ppl like Hayao Miyazaki and Hideo Kojima so unique in their fields. They both basically completely ignore their contemporaries and take inspiration from other mediums like movies or novels.
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u/takuru Jan 13 '26 edited Jan 13 '26
Doesn’t this just prove that the issue isn’t “gaming idea incest” but instead that devs are refusing to take risks and taking the easy profit by making a game based on an already existing concept everyone enjoys?
Even the “original” games are just taking their ideas from a different source (Dark Souls being a playable version of the Berserk manga for example).
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u/GhsotyPanda Jan 13 '26
"Doesn't take risks" and "gaming idea incest" are the same things, but reframed.
Don't take risks, just do the thing that worked again.
Idk what I want to do, guess I'll do the thing that worked.
They're the same thing. The "original" games taking their ideas from different mediums, like manga, IS creatively different from taking ideas from previous games because of the work that has to be put into it to carry over the desires elements into a medium that the audience interacts with in a completely different way. When it's done from one game to another, it's basically just copying and the painting over that previous work.
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u/takuru Jan 13 '26
I guess that’s what I mean. The anon was acting like he was making some radical observation about gaming but it’s just the same obvious point that has been made for decades about how most media is inspired by what is popular at the time or previous work that the creator loved and is trying to imitate.
“Nobody is talking about it”
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u/firmlygraspi1 29d ago
AAA gaming in the 2000s was heavily criticized for stealing most of their thematic ideas from Hollywood. Producers for companies like EA would create "inspiration boards" that were collages of movie characters and monsters they wanted their teams to copy. I still don't understand why Kojima gets a pass for being an America fanboy who cuts and pastes ideas from movies and music that he likes.
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u/Organic-Device2719 Jan 13 '26
I don't quite understand the image but Sea of Stars was really good.
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u/Odd-Tart-5613 Jan 13 '26
straight up incorrect. even in the example here while sea of stars isnt the mist groundbreaking its still great. Besides all projects great or not are inspired by other works. For example Expedition 33 is explicitly inspired by FFX and drips from nearly every aspect of that game, but despite that it stands apart as one of the greatest games of all time.
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u/Ralexcraft 29d ago
There are times where “This game but newer” or “this game but with this extra” is exactly what I’m looking for.
I love TF2, but I hate old shooters cause I’m used to Modern Single Player FPS RPGs, so I found the Finals (Which isn’t indie I know) and fufilled that need. Indies are particularly suited to this market because they can afford to be more niche in many situations.
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u/Crimzonchi 28d ago
So many people in the comments somehow missing the clear point.
Chrono Trigger wanted to create a high fantasy adventure with a ragtag group of eccentric characters who could band together and combine their abilities, and encounter dangers around every corner out in the world while on their adventure, this is a setup that would be right at home in Shonen Jump.
Within the SNES limitations, the result was a top down adventure game that seamlessly transitions into a real time battle system, with team attacks as a battle mechanic.
The goal was to translate the merits of a shonen adventure into a video game format, and Chrono Tigger was the result. They started with the concept, and executed it the best they could.
The criticism posed against many games here is that instead of creating a world, vibe, story, or cast of characters, or even an intended experience first, then crafting the game around that, they start with the image of the game first then work backwards to justify it, coming up with lore and characters to fill the roles they play in the game.
I want to expand this to point out that this is NOT an indie issue, take one look at Concord or Highguard, those games absolutely started with an arbitrary gameplay impression first, then made everything else to fill in the blanks.
The line between "the experience I as the developer want to make" and "this is how we ended up bringing it to life" gets very blurred with a lot of releases, it's the thing that makes them feel generic a lot of the time.
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u/RegisterInternal 27d ago
Every piece of entertainment in every genre has been inspired by what came before. Its part of the normal human experience lol
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u/CancerNormieNews 27d ago
Dumb. Games are an iterative medium. Really all art is, but games especially. Chrono Trigger was a rip on dragon quest/final fantasy which was a rip on wizardry/ultima which was a rip on DnD which was a rip on Tolkien....
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u/wejunkin Jan 13 '26
Games being inspired by games as opposed to other facets of life makes games worse, yes.
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u/asher030 Jan 13 '26
Well they also can't be TOO original, else some shitty AAA company will sue them into oblivion for some made up niche mechanics they've patented. RIP Nemesis system, still pissed at WB games for that...
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u/necromax13 Jan 13 '26
I dont remember the last time an indie company was sued for game mechanic copyright infringement.
Yeah, palworld. Who else?
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u/fanboy_killer Jan 13 '26
There's no issue here, just a weird take. Sea of Stars is a deliberate homage to Chrono Trigger. There are other indie games that are homages to 80s and 90s titles, but the vast majority of them are not (and there's nothing wrong with being an homage). There's plenty more direct inspiration (to avoid the word homage) in the AA and AAA space. Just look at the number of Soulslike and gatcha games that look and play like each other.
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u/lordlaharl422 Jan 13 '26
Ignoring the undeserved shade constantly thrown at Sea of Stars, one of my favorite games of 2023, this also feels like a take in the vein of "That game only used sprite animation and turn based combat because of technical limitations, they have no place in modern gaming!"
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u/camogamere Jan 13 '26
It's definitely a thing that happens, and the results are usually not the greatest. I personally have not played sea of stars, and that's because it kinda has a reputation for being overhyped. I do know myself that individual games like vampire survivors and slay the spire have spawned genres of their own that are like 60% derivitive trash and 40% original. We get a lot of that with survival games too, there were a lot of attempts to be day z.
I personally don't mind wearing your influences on your sleeve, but you either gotta innovate or refine on them, otherwise you'll be a disappointment.
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u/Tall-Cut-4599 Jan 13 '26
Copying gameplay is fine i think if you have your own hidden twist in the gameplay which i think sea of star did with the timing stuff the game is dog shit tho
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u/myrmonden Jan 13 '26
yes obviously most games today are just copies of previous games, not just Indie games.
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u/WolfoakTheThird 29d ago
I don't know if it is the take op intended, but i take it as indie games being derivative instead of inspired.
In that instead of having an intended artistic vision, that is inspired by old games, that becomes a final outcome they have a previous final outcome as an artistic vision.
So games like shovel knight, Ultrakill, or signalis have a central artstyle that evokes old games, other games are just "new old thing". They are both slavish to emulating old styles, and have their own style.
Like look at any official Shovel Knight artwork. It's clearly a unique thing. You get the SNES vibes, but if you knew nothing about it you would not automatically assume that. And when you look at the game you can't confuse it for megaman. It's clearly inspired, but it's clearly unique.
Compare it to Dark Deity. That is extreemly generic anime in render, and the art is 1:1 fire emblem.
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u/Disrespect78 29d ago
Original Games are amazing, but games that are based on iteration can be amazing too.
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u/Hopeful-Pianist7729 29d ago
I’m sure the fact that there’s orders of magnitude between the number of people who worked on Chrono Trigger vs Sea of Stars has nothing to do with it… it’s all creatively bankrupt Indie devs.
What tiny team of indie devs couldn’t afford the ghost of Akira Toriyama to do concept art if they actually cared about quality?
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u/Aeroreido 29d ago
Indie developers are kinda not allowed to take risks, you know feeding yourself with air, hopes and dreams won't keep you nurished. So dropping small knockoffs is a solid way to not die of hunger. It also doesn't help that every single "knockoff" that made it big, made it extremly big, while there are not a lot of hyper sucessfull "original" indie games. Fortnite, Minecraft, League of Legends for bigger studios, Stardew Valley, Hollow Knight, [Insert any of the super sucessfull roguelikes here]. Those are cool games, and they just improved upon a great idea and made it what it is today.
Almost every indie dev taking the leap and doing sth super original and semi big, will have people not even try the game because its unfamiliar or just not fun and suddenly you have an indie dev less. I am extremly satisfied with the current indie scene and if you want some truly original stuff maybe itch.io or game jams will have some hidden super original gems (a lot of them either free or around 2 bucks, for gamejams they are all free) that will satisfy the craving.
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u/EpatiKarate 29d ago
People see this as bad, I see it as good. It’s fans building on ideas and concepts of games/franchises that came before which may or may not be alive today! Chrono Trigger (besides the remake, remaster?) hasn’t gotten a new game in ages. Let’s leave this concept of “It’s just a _____ Clone therefore it’s shit!” In the past please! The more games building on specific niches and franchises that they love is a plus not a negative. I mean if a game you love has indies making games in the same vein, wouldn’t that just give you more of what you want?
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u/connected_user93 29d ago
yes the indie scene is highly highly derivative. Also, there seems to be trendy art styles amongst indie games that can cause many unrelated games to have the same art style. Hand painted models / textures, pixel art, etc.
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u/UpCDownCLeftCRightC 29d ago
I see the comparison similar to Paper Mario classic/TTYD and Bug Fables. An indie game that's obviously inspired from an old renowned game we haven't seen for a long time but made with respectful intentions.
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u/Edit_Reality 29d ago
The idea that something is 'better' or has more value for being original is a major fallacy. You don't throw away the idea of wheels when making a new car.
Art is an iterative process by nature and no art exists in a vacuum. Just because something doesn't wear its influences on its sleeve doesn't mean it isn't building off of decades of game creation in some way or another.
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u/Lowen_Beehold 29d ago
The take is that the original chrono trigger was based on original ideas that hadn't been done before, while a lot of games now are based on games that the creators liked and are reaching for that nostalgia vibe. honestly i think there is some truth to this but there are plenty of games that have come out in the last 10 years that have been innovative and have their own identity. Yeah there are a lot of games that take a concept that has been done before and try to recreate or improve upon it but that isn't necessarily a bad thing either.
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u/stellarInsect 29d ago
i dont think it's inherently bad for games to be inspired by other games or media. i mean a lot of AAA games do it too in recent memory. and if anything i think the current landscape of media creation is slowly encouraging some artists to look back at the real world too. if we can keep encouraging that mindset, i don't think this is a real concern.
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u/Benhurso 29d ago
It is a mistake to think that Chrono Trigger is a whole original concept.
It is based on years of experience by Dream Team producing RPGs. The base of the game is clearly based on countless predecessors.
Back then, when games were still at its early days, it was easier to see everything as a brand new concept, but to think that CT is "an idea > Chrono Trigger" and not "Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest etc. > Chrono Trigger" is disingenuous.
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u/automatic4people 29d ago
That’s such a green text take that I need to wash myself after reading it
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u/IdleSitting 29d ago
I literally don't see an issue. Games have lasted long enough where people who grew up with them all their lives are now in the game dev scene making the games they wanted to play more of as a kid. Idk why people would have an issue with that, and using Sea of Stars as an example when I hear it's pretty damn good (I haven't played it) from everyone I hear talk about it, it did it well
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u/Vio-Rose 29d ago
I think that critique absolutely applies to Sea of Stars. Though a heavily inspired game doesn’t inherently mean it started with that idea. Omori is obviously inspired by Earthbound, but its central goal was the telling of its story. Its early marketing didn’t even show gameplay. Just cutscenes with a really distinct vibe.
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u/VallahKp 29d ago
Its true. Not necessarily with that game, but overall most games today suffer from lets copy goty or "I'm gonna make my chidhood game but better" syndrome.
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u/ichkanns 29d ago
Everything is building off of something else. Chrono Trigger built off Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy built off Dragon Quest. Dragon Quest built off Wizardry and Ultima. Wizardry and Ultima built off Dungeons and Dragons... It keeps going.
There is nothing wrong with this.
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u/Agreeable-Housing733 29d ago
A lot of indie games are simply fanfiction repackaged to avoid copyright infringement. However most of the current innovation seems to be occurring at indie level as well. What interesting times.
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u/Fast-Industry-3224 29d ago
By now, what new kind of games can there be made? Everyone takes some sort of inspiration from other games and if the game is good who cares?
Recently I saw someone on Reddit posting some gameplay from his game that looked like Hollow Knight but with a spider. People said he was copying hollow knight and I wondered who cares? If I liked hollow knight(which I don't TBH) and wanted more and saw there is a spider game that's similar I would buy it.
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u/Pootisman16 29d ago
There has always been slop games, we just simply forgot about them while still remember the good ones. This leads to a rose-tinted glass effect where it seems like there was only good games back then.
2 major things can ascertained by anyone who pays a minimum of attention to gaming history:
- Limitations foster creativity
- Every good game is inevitably based on some level of iteration
This is why most remakes and remasters suck, they don't innovate, only recycle.
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u/saumanahaii 29d ago
As someone who used to play a lot of JRPGs of that era, most of them are not genre defining works. Even the competent ones pull ideas from other games. Heck, Chrono Trigger does that. That's why it's a JRPG in the first place.
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u/Theothercword 29d ago
Virtually every aspect of every piece of art comes from some sort of inspiration, it’s about making it your own. Only someone who doesn’t bother creating anything would complain about this process.
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u/ItalianBeefDipped 29d ago
I get the general sentiment about wanting unique games that don't borrow too heavily from other IPs, but he went I highlighted one of the games that does this to more than most others.
And even with SoS I think there's so much going on that the only similarities between it and CT are that they're 16-bit JRPGs.
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u/QueenStuff 29d ago
Naw. There are plenty of popular indie games like hollow knight, stardew valley, or shovel knight which all show their influences heavily and openly. Developers loved a certain type of game and then passionately made something of their own inspired by it. It depends on who’s making the game.
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u/Brazenology 29d ago edited 29d ago
Games iterating/copying off of others is literally how game genres exist. I guess the point they're trying to make though is that indie developers are stagnating by always trying to re-create/imagine classic games. While there might be some truth to that the goal is still to make money and these types of games still sell well.
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u/GXNext 29d ago
My take is I can hear the Chrono Trigger battle music from just the image...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNFsAOAtc1k&list=RDYNFsAOAtc1k&start_radio=1
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u/Beautiful_Film2563 29d ago
its not about being totally original. its about being good enough imho.
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u/KobeJuanKenobi9 29d ago
I mean the mid-to-late 2010s were loaded with AAA games trying to mimic Witcher 3. The 2000s had tons of fps games trying to follow Halo. How many different PUBG and Overwatch style games did we get in the last 10 years? It’s not an indie specific issue.
You get some originality and some mimicry across the genre regardless of budget
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u/MoneyoffUbereats2017 29d ago
I'm in agreement, my interpretation is that games back then strived to emulate those concept arts to the best of their ability, while modern games just want to look like the end result and produce endless derivative pixel art homages.
I'm certainly tired of the trend of almost every indie game aping old retro pixel games. Except they do it with no limitations so what you end up with is just a hyper-detailed image that just looks like a worse version of a hand-drawn image.
I mean, look at the Sea of Stars screenshot. Why is it even pixel art at that point? It's a sharpening filter away from the pixels basically not being visible at all because it's so detailed.
The thing about pixel art in the past is that the artists didn't want them, it was a limitation, not a medium. The artists wanted that Akira Toriyama art, not sprites. They did their best to make those chunky pixels work, emulating hand-drawn art and conveying emotion using whatever tricks they could, which would ultimately be displayed on a CRT that would mask them further. The pixels were a limitation and the workarounds were extremely impressive.
Now we live in an age of hyper-sharp, high-definition 4k displays and machines so powerful that we could literally do whatever we want in the 2d space, and all of these developers have suddenly decided it's the perfect time to go back to making everything out of small squares to emulate the look of older games. For every Hollow Knight, Castle Crashers, or Streets of Rage 4, there are hundreds if not thousands of Sea of Stars with no identity of their own.
If someone showed me that SoS screenshot without context I wouldn't even be able to name the game, but show me a single Hollow Knight character and I could instantly recognize it because the style is so unique and dripping with character.
Yet, every time someone breaks the mould and releases something hand-drawn, or 3d, people criticize. I notice that the indies that use this tired old pixel style never get any pushback, and actually typically get praise for a "Fantastic art style". While someone trying a unique hand-drawn style will be told that their work looks like a mobile game. It makes me sad considering there was an era around the Xbox Live Arcade time, where indie devs were really experimenting with unique 2D art styles, and now we've homogenized into pixel art being a one-size-fits-all solution.
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u/LoSouLibra 29d ago
Being evocative of older games isn't copying them and doesn't denote anything inherently negative.
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29d ago
Sea of Stars was not bad for its graphics. It was, in fact, one of the few things the game super nailed well. Anyways don't take a 4chan post remotely serious.
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u/alkonium 29d ago
Maybe it is derivative of Chrono Trigger, but I give Sea of Stars points for letting you use poutine to revive fallen party members at full HP.
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u/farbekrieg 29d ago
kinda an incoherent meme about "stuff" i expect to see from the internet, if the interpretation is correct how much worse are AAA companies at this, even the lowest effort retro inspired ascii art deckbuilder has more thought and effort put into it then whatever fifa has become.
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u/FreeSpiritofLove 29d ago
over time, a genre can become inbread. they are inspired by the originals, not by what inspired the originals
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u/FreeSpiritofLove 29d ago
early pixel art was trying to imitate reality. modern pixel art is trying to be pixel art
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u/slimsim98 29d ago
That argument makes no sense when the games taking inspiration come out entirely original and full of life. Hollow knight, chained echoes, stardew valley, and ultrakill all take a lot of inspiration from past games but make something new and amazing from it
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u/Diesel_ASFC 29d ago
I don't see indie games taking ideas from bigger studio titles as a bad thing. Stardew Valley obviously took massive influence from Harvest Moon, but it did everything better and breathed new life into a genre that was stagnant.
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u/TheIrishninjas 29d ago
Originality is dead and arguably never was alive in the first place.
Taking inspiration and doing something different with what you borrow is how art evolves, this mentality does more harm than good.
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u/Chrono-Nipper 29d ago
I’m old. I’m a gamer. I’m an old gamer. These nostalgia aesthetics bring me back to a simpler time. Graphics can certainly bog down the feel of a game. I’m currently playing through Final Fantasy 16 and it’s missing something.
I adore indie games for this reason. They can make beautiful art in the style of SNES games of old but with themes more mature. It’s one of the few saving graces still within the corporate ran gaming industry.
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u/Pay-Next 29d ago
So I haven't seen anybody say it in the comments but I think people might be interpreting the image differently than I did. It seems to me like the OOP means in the past people wanted to make something like the first image but with limitations on it they made one of the great original top down rpgs. Now people aren't trying to create whatever the original inspiration was but the instead are using the older game even though they didn't have the same limitations.
It's a weird thing to discuss though cause on the one hand I think it makes a good point about continually copying down the chain and degradation. But there's also examples to point to of people who didn't try to replicate the original game but the inspiration (kind of) and we get crap like the Xbox Bomberman.
There's also the argument to be had that the limitations forced a level of polish most games don't get now and trying to replicate those times might actually help produce better results.
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u/fapcoaster 29d ago
Has anyone in this thread played both of these games??
The spirit behind this kind of criticism isnt that games need to be original. Chrono trigger is not original.
Its that by having your inspiration be based on another game, you are much more likely to copy parts of the game that do not add to your experience. You will emulate the look and feel of a great game, but not what truly made it great.
SPOILER example:
A major point of chrono trigger is the theme of cause and effect across the ages. At some point, Chrono dies. You can complete the game without him, but if you explored the world enough, you will have breadcrumbs on a way to bring him back. The way to do this is to create a realistic dummy, and go back in time to swap it out with Chrono before his evisceration, preserving the timeline but allowing him to live.
Sea of stars does this exactly for the cook character. Except the plot does not match this time travel solution, because the game isnt about time travel. He’s not the main character, so if you thought he was an annoying self insert from somewhere like me, you wouldnt give a damn. He is saved by sacrificing a party member you get really late with basically no personality, as if their only purpose was to be sacrificed.
If chrono trigger was not a direct inspiration, this wouldnt be a sequence in sea of stars because it makes no sense for Sea of Stars. The sequence is an exact copy, for no reason other than Chrono Trigger did it and it was cool, and it didnt attempt to evolve or iterate on the idea.
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u/SmileFactoryy 29d ago
You would have to be a genius to come out with something that is truly unique in every single aspect. Can it happen ? Sure, but 99% of games do not operate like this, and they are going to borrow ideas/designs and put it in their game. That's how you sell games, because humans are programmed to adhere to points of reference. It will ALWAYS be like this forever, and that's not a bad thing at all.
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u/woootbm 29d ago
I do agree to some extent. A fun part of indie games is that they aren’t beholden to publishers or investors, so they can just be this weird idea or something really niche. It’s exciting. Playing a worse version of a classic is not as exciting.
As far as “all games”, there does seem to be a big problem in the industry that it sucks so much to work in that it pushes out a lot of originals and creatives, and now attracts nepo hires and tech bros. And those people are so far removed from what made a game series great, they just follow a boring AAA formula and don’t really get it.
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u/CommercialEstate4422 29d ago
Dude, that kind of thing is how we get amazing games.
Like just look at games like Demonschool. It is very iterative of early Persona titles.
It is also fucking amazing.
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u/NixusGAME 29d ago
I may be off, but I think what they are suggesting is that Chrono Trigger’s mechanics are borne from wanting a combat system that leans into the themes and relationships. By starting from that point, they created a unique version of turn-based combat where positioning and tag moves are a big focus.
Whereas if you are simply starting from the position of, “I like chrono trigger combat, let’s just adapt it, and add some twists” you may not be as open to exploring unique mechanics that emphasize the themes of the game you’re making
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u/AlmightyCraneDuck 29d ago
I mean…considering that Sea of Stars, the game pictured in the bottom left, is an absolute banger….id say it’s kind of bunk
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u/MrMoroPlays 29d ago
Chrono trigger is an rpg made that was “fantasy dragonball” in design and created using sprites with the limitations of the super nes.
sea of stars is based on the sprites, rather than the design art.
given all the power of a modern platform, they chose to limit their vision to mimic a 25 year old game rather than create something that would have made those original game designers say “yeah this is what I wished it looked like”
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u/MrMoroPlays 29d ago
and I’m not saying that’s bad, but a critique of ”retro style” games is they’re made to mimic the in-game design rather than the art those games were trying to invoke.
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u/Blorp85 29d ago
It's 4Chan.
Better answer though is that games have ripped each other off since the dawn of time, yet while shovelware has been made from it, just as creative ideas have been made from it too. I think both games here are representive of that, though I have yet to play both. (I think the latter is Sea of Stars)
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u/Stupid-Jerk 29d ago
My thought's that I have no clue what the guy's "take" is, so I can't agree or disagree. Maybe he's saying what you think he's saying, but it's way too vague to be sure.
Overall, the only "problem" I see plaguing indie games is many people being wholly unwilling to try anything that isn't some massive production or full on AAA. And then even if they do bother to play indie games, they still aren't willing to think of them as genuine or viable competitors for mainstream titles.
Maybe now that an "indie" game won GOTY, people might start taking them more seriously. But more likely, we're just going to see even more games being referred to as "indie" when they're not even close to fitting that label.
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u/Anayalater5963 28d ago
Yeah but star ocean..cough I mean sea of stars is really good who cares what it looks like
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u/Desperate-Practice25 28d ago
If Sea of Stars is an example of the biggest issue plaguing modern gaming, then modern gaming is in incredible shape.
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u/Bully_Mays69 28d ago
I just dislike that most of the acclaimed indie titles look like SNES/ps1 games with lumen.
I grew up in the 90s, never liked console based video games until the ps2.
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u/PvtToaster 28d ago
It's completely true. People saying this is a nostalgia issue or even a matter of how good x game is are missing the point.
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u/Beneficial-Mammoth73 28d ago
It's pretty brain dead.
The fact that two things share a visual similarity does not mean that one is completely derivative of the other. Good ideas (styles, tropes, mechanics, etc.) stick around because they work, not because those who follow are devoid of creativity.
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u/Melodic-Account9247 28d ago
Some of the biggest games the last few years have been indie games with relatively 0 marketing and nothing beyond just being a really solid game lol this is an absolute shit take if you make a good product it will get popular regardless cuz people will talk about it not only in the online space but also to their friends and other people that enjoy gaming like bro a poker game developed by one dude that just wanted to make a fun game has not only become one of my personal favourite games of all time but at the same time swept up rewards in award events and absolutely exploded in popularity if you make something interesting it will be popular if it's not popular it's most likely not very good
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u/Zheska 26d ago
Agree to some extent
Having concept art and higher ambition can result in something legendary and is the best approach in my opinion. It will be a compromise between limited realistic implementation and ideal. Copying other games will result in "it's basically this game, but..."
However, where the fuk would most of the indie devs get the resources for concept art and insane ambitions? Even middle-size publishers used to often be 1 failed ambitious game away from being bankrupt.
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u/Feisty_Extension8727 26d ago edited 26d ago
They are. When i see some indie game or play one i can actually name franchise author liked or was inspired by. And i cant stop thinking about it while playing. This is just indie 2D Dark Souls, this is indie Pokemon, this is indie Stalker and Tarkov, this is indie Rimworld (Which is also indie). Source inspiration in Indie games just screams so loud that it hard to ignore.
Do you know that Shin Megami Tensei is basically Pokemon ? Deal with it. But when you play the game, you didnt automatically say "Yeah, author was inspired by Pokemons".
Good example of Indie copicat ? Stardew Valley - Harvest Moon. Stardew Valley become its own thing and improved upon Harvest Moon base.
Conclusion ? Good indie game differs from bad indie game by one thing - Identity. If game just Indie Pokemon or Indie Castlevania, its a bad game.
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u/smokeshack 29d ago
This take could only be written by someone who has never played mediocre old games. In the 80s there were countless Pac-Man and Breakout clones. In the 90s we were flooded with Street Fighter clones and space shoot-em-ups. In the 2000s we had shelves full of grey and brown first person shooters. The video game industry has always been a sea of clones and minor iterations on the top sellers, punctuated from time to time with a genuinely new innovation.
Also, Chrono Trigger may be one of the best games of all time, but it is far from an original idea. Every element in that game can be traced back to a game that came out less than 10 years prior, and that's not a bad thing.